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Post by Hiroshi on May 3, 2011 5:32:02 GMT
Well said my friend!
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Post by Cold Napalm on May 3, 2011 5:46:02 GMT
Yes I mean looks...not talking about structural fit. I don't think anyone would say the Gus swords in general have that problem.
Okay the XIX looks better (but still has issues), but take a look at the XIV.1 . That handle is a short fat handle. The pommel choice is WAY to thin for that handle. It makes the whole sword look slapped together because of that to me. That is one example. I don't mean my nit picking historical accuracy, I mean the sword just looks off as a sword. Course it also doesn't help that he set the lower riser right at the base of the handle...which makes the pommel seem even more out of place. The pommel should be flush or at least close to flush with the base of the handle. Also the over use of the type 6 guard doesn't help either. I mean if he wants a more generic all around guard, the type 1 works wonders in it's range of application and versatility (you can easily change these to other types after all). But when you see the type 6 on the XII, then the XVIa and the XVIII and the XIX...well yeah thats gonna look slapped together from what looks like left over parts. Once again, the key word is LOOKS. I know this isn't the case. You can get away with the type 1 more because that guard melds more into the background then the type 6 which sticks out. You don't wanna overuse a guard type that sticks out too much. Best is to just have a greater variety of guards but I realize that will increase labor and so cost.
Okay, more of a detail on the pommel...let look at the tinker hanwei swords. They all have pommels that are close to flush with the base of the handle. All the albions? Yep the same there. All the A&A...one again yes. Christian fletcher ones? Yep. So which swords have thin pommels compared to the base of the handle? Windlass, gen 2, CAS...i.e. the lower end sword. So when gus does that, it makes the sword look...well cheap. And that isn't a price issue. All that he needs to do to fix this is to use a different pommel and/or move the placement of the riser. There should be no issues with cost. Yeah I know, it seems like a small thing, but it's really not.
So some simple changes that will radical change the way these swords look.
1) don't use so much type 6 guards. If you can't have a large variety of guards, use the type 1 more.
2) move the riser at the base up like 1-2 mm
3) use thicker pommels that are going to be more flush with the handle
None of this should increase cost at all. So does that help? I mean if you need more nit picking detail, I can help with that too. Will send you a PM.
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Post by Enkidu on May 3, 2011 14:01:57 GMT
I think that CN pretty much summed up ( with more explicit details ) what i posted earlier.
The wheel pommel and the type 6 guards are on about every model ( like i said, with variations ) and that does give the impression that not much work is put in those.
The sword market has changed a lot, we are at a point were people ask for the performances and the looks under 500$.
Just going for more different types of pommels and guards might do the trick for the Atrims if you guys want to eliminate that kind of perception for the customers.
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Post by chuckinohio on May 3, 2011 14:08:38 GMT
More variety in the furniture would serve to enhance the appeal of the line on a visual level, hence sparking more interest from a wider spectrum of purchasers.
Outside of the multiple fullered models, the line does appear at first glance to be rather mundane. This perception, to the uninitiated, may very well lead to them being perceived as Tom first suggested.
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Post by ShooterMike on May 3, 2011 14:25:07 GMT
ColdNapalm's comments mirror my own thoughts, for the last 2-3 years. I have mentioned them to Gus on occasion, as the conversation has warranted. I would add, moving to a variety of riser styles and locations would be a big benefit toward differentiating various models. And changing the handle shape to a more ergonomic palm swell design that tapers at both ends to meld with the hilt furniture would be a great visual improvement for single-hand swords. Also making sure all handles have an oval, hexagonal or octagonal cross section, as opposed to the mostly rectangular cross section of the current handles would be both a visual and egronomic improvement. And improve the leather wrapping.
Some of those things would cost time/money, thus raising the price a bit. And they are all available on a semi-custom basis. So given the market niche Gus is carving out with these lower-priced swords... consider any changes carefully.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on May 3, 2011 14:53:06 GMT
thank you cold napalm and guys, this is the sort of feedback we need.
we had discussed the riser placement issue as a matter of fact. Gus and I both figured there'd be people who didn't like the looks but we both felt that the riser felt better where it is. we will revisit this.
We have been working on grip shapes actually. the XIV.1 grip that napalm referenced is one of the early experiments in non-rectangular shaping. to be honest, I loved the way it felt. it did look a little chubby, but it felt great. we are continuing to work on grip shaping.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on May 3, 2011 15:00:27 GMT
That XIV.1... Wooo boy... the most interesting Atrim to me in some time. I really wanted to get my hands on it.
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TomK
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Post by TomK on May 3, 2011 15:09:27 GMT
but what was your opinion of the grip?
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on May 3, 2011 15:16:48 GMT
Looked fine to me in the pics... obviously never got a chance to see it in person... Mumblegrumblerazzlefrazzle. The Grips on Gus's swords have never been a point of focus for me... anyone who knows anything about Atrims knows that they are functional and spartan and that is that... and if ya wanna pretty em up ya do it yourself or have someone like CF or Sonny's CSS do it... which I have done on many of my Atrims. 
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Post by Cold Napalm on May 3, 2011 15:21:32 GMT
Well tom, if you and gus feel that the handle design and riser placement is comfortable ergonomically, you can keep it. You just need to make sure the pommel choice is a better fit for the design of the handle tho. In the case of the XIV.1 a smaller diameter, thicker pommel for example. And fortunately, this one doesn't suffer from the overuse of the type 6 crossguard so that part is fine.
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Post by ShooterMike on May 3, 2011 16:22:34 GMT
The current risers are something I have never liked. They are made of a flat strip of leather. Sort of a leather band. They just look aesthetically unpleasing to me. Gus and Tinker have always used them, and I have always not liked them. To me, round-looking risers just look more like what a medieval sword should have. But that may just be me. I always remove Gus' leather wraps and risers and redo them to be what I consider more pleasing. So my input on this may be pointless.
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Talon
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Post by Talon on May 3, 2011 19:13:12 GMT
i think mike raised a very valid point (especially in light of recent event's in the sword industry) gus's sword's represent tremendous value for money,he is an american smith,and as such i imagine he has a much smaller profit margin than say a manufacturer from china, considering all of the overhead's he must have,the price of current atrim's amazes me,and if he was to spend more time on the asthetic's (which i dont really have any problem's with anyway) this would only lead to an increase in the final purchase price, and possibly affect sales,id rather he kept the sword's just as they are,you could always add your'e own touches.as and when you want,and this way he has a fighting chance of staying in business
bear in mind i purchased the atrim i have in 2002 and it cost me £350 uk sterling,the 2 sword's ive recently ordered cost $375 us dollar's each,now to me that's one hell of a bargain
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Post by ShooterMike on May 3, 2011 19:28:25 GMT
And just to add that, when I buy an ATrim from Gus, I get him to send it to me with a bare unshaped wood core grip. It saves me the trouble of stripping off what he wraps, and allows me to shape the grip the way I want it. And I pay him the same price as if he'd put the cord and leather on a finished grip. I still consider it a bargain.
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Post by chuckinohio on May 3, 2011 22:00:10 GMT
That describes exactly how I view the Atrim line. Damn fine tools. No frills, just the fundamentals.
The bare grip core could be offered as an option no? The buyer with an eye toward customizing an Atrim out of the box shouldn't blink an eye at that.
A defined grip core shape for each of the time periods of the swords offered might go a long way towards adding a bit of variety and distinction to the line also. Face it, from the Xa to the XVIII, all have the same basic grip shape, just varying in length more or less.
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Post by Cold Napalm on May 3, 2011 23:00:06 GMT
No I agree with you. Never liked the flat risers myself. But for me, it's not just the looks. It feels off for me as well. finger doesn't wanna go over those flat riser...but I guess there are some who do like it since Tom says they are comfortable. Shurg. Also you mentioned all those different grip cross-sections. That would be nice, but from a no frills PoV, I think anything beyond a straight taper, rectangular or oval cross is gonna have to push the price up...however I don't see why some swords could not have a straight taper oval cross to help get some variety in the looks of the sword.
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Post by Enkidu on May 4, 2011 1:12:57 GMT
Rounded raisers here too, that may be the only flaw i can find about my ( grand espee de guerre ) Tinker sword, i dont like those flat raisers either.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on May 4, 2011 1:40:05 GMT
Sounds awful... you should sell/trade it to me (since you just barely got to it before I was going to anyway) so you don't have to deal with those flat risers anymore.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2011 1:57:00 GMT
I have to disagree on this one. The grip blends well into the guard and pommel in my opinion. And the grip is not really either short or fat. Looking straight on at the hex nut you can't see any of the grip. Not all is perfect as one side of the bottom riser is thicker than the other, which when viewed along the grip seam does look too thick. Now, I just went and looked at the pics on T&TA and I see it, though the side shown is the "good" side and it does look too thick, But it curves in and tapers to meet the pommel,making it all seem to fit well. I say the pic doesn't do it credit.
The grip itself is very comfortable and fits nicely in the hand.
Now, for the original topic: The hex nut. While I myself prefer this, it could be seen as a mark of lower quality. So a peening option might help. And for those who prefer the hex making sure it doesn't stick out past the pommel would be good.
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Post by Hiroshi on May 4, 2011 2:19:40 GMT
I'm sorry but I MUST take major issue with this comment.
<rant>
But first let me ask you this...
Would you rather have a sword that actually works like a sword should even if it isn't pretty that costs $400?
or
Would you like a sword that looks great, but is lacking in the performance department and actually costs more then $800?
When Tom and I started Tried & True Armory it was our goal to get ATrims out there. We could have sold these swords for the exact same price that christian was selling them for. But we didn't, because we know that very few people will spend $500 on a sword. We know that if someone buys an ATrim, they will love it. Then they will come back for more. Our goal is not to make money, obiously we have to make some sort of profit, websites to cost money and special projects take startup capital.
We believe with every fiber of our being that Gus' swords are SOME of the best swords on the market at ANY price and are in fact THE BEST swords you can get for under $500.
About the pommels:
Gus' pommel choices are done primarily based on weight. So if he chose a pommel that was thicker to match the grip the swords mechanics would be thrown off. Don't want that do ya?
Also, OF COURSE the H/T line of swords pommels are flush with the grips, the grips are designed to fit a 5 year olds hand. I wrapped my H/T bastard swords grip with thick cotton twine & leather over the original un modified grip and it's just now the right size. So saying that the H/Ts (speaking on pommel/grip size) are done correctly compared to ATrims is honestly a bit insulting both to myself and Angus Trim.
Sorry if I've ruffled your feather here but I feel whole heartedly that this needed to be addressed.
</rant>
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Post by Enkidu on May 4, 2011 2:35:14 GMT
Yeah... Sean... I'm so glad that at least one person here have good thoughts about me and this awful situation i'm living with... You know, i think this is a moment i Have to get trough alone, Its a Freudian or Nietzcheisque moment of my life if you will, something about overcoming impossible odds to become a better man... The good thing is, that if i see that i'm about to give up.. YOU will be there to assist me. Thank you Sean. A testimony of what kind of a man you are, and if it doesnt convince you, just remind the rug... the rug man, the rug !!! The rug. |
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the one a trim i have atm is one of gus's early ones,the fit and finish are spot on,the cross centres itself perfectly every time,the pommel is well machined,and sits perfectly cental on the tang, i think they key word with gus's swords has always been performance,every a trim sword i've seen looks exactly like what it was intended to look like,a high performance sword intended to be used,the level of polish on the blades is perfect for me,enough polishing to not hinder the blade as it tracks through the target,but still easy to maintain, (i dont like a high polish anyway)
