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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 11, 2011 15:27:45 GMT
What makes the earlier pair of videos disturbing and provocative is that they encroach upon the firearm carrier's comfort zone--distance. Except for extremely rare circumstances, distance works to the advantage of the gun not the knife. The knifer must close to be effective. At close distance the knife must be addressed by means other than the gun.
The following video has a Teuller drill demonstration (about :36 in) plus some other eye-opening stuff for us gunners to be aware of:
At 5:20 in the following there is a short pair of knife vs. gun drills that are germane:
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 11, 2011 15:28:37 GMT
Dunno about the RL uses for kukri throwing, but I tell ya I wouldn't to have a kukri stuck in my liver like that.
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Sean (Shadowhowler)
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 11, 2011 17:37:20 GMT
Those two vids are VERY interesting Larry... thanks for those.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 11, 2011 17:54:13 GMT
another interesting style that does alot with knives and defending from knives and guns is Krav Magat
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 11, 2011 18:50:15 GMT
I too really like those two videos, thanks alot Larry.
About Krav Maga, it sure is one of the most pragmatic and functionnal martial art that I know of. I wouldn't want to get into a fight with a guy that knows that stuff.
However, I have seen a clip of a guy using Krav Maga to beat an opponent who was pointing a knife at his throat , point-blank range, and it looked more tacticool than tactical.
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Post by Sean (Shadowhowler) on Mar 11, 2011 19:11:48 GMT
Krav Maga does handle weapons such as knives and sticks and disarming such, including guns... But Kali is centered around the knife and stick, and those I have seen who practice it are VERY good with a knife. Incidentally... the two above mentioned styles are, to my experience, two of the most effective for real world fighting.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 11, 2011 19:22:50 GMT
Having trained a few months in Kali, I totally agree. The knife & stick-related skills teached in Kali are very, very good.
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Post by Elheru Aran on Mar 11, 2011 19:37:06 GMT
The value of training can't be overestimated. A good knife-fighter could very well get the upper hand on a guy who's never handled a gun before. However, unless deliberately given the upper hand, I would give a skilled pistol shooter the advantage in a combat that starts at a distance. Up close, it's more questionable, but you're more likely to survive a slash (albeit lose a lot of blood) than you are a bullet. I don't put much value on throwing knives.
It's pretty interesting to see how quickly a person can close with another, that's for sure. Definitely puts the occasional story about cops shooting guys with knives or golf clubs in a different light for sure.
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Post by Tendrax on Mar 11, 2011 19:55:02 GMT
Biggest thing I noticed in that first video Larry posted is that the guys with the guns just backed up. Why wouldn't they just side step and get out of the line of attack? Backing up while someone runs at you with any weapon is just a bit silly to me.
That said I think it really comes down to the skill of the two people more than anything.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 11, 2011 20:14:54 GMT
when i was in academy i first heard about the 21 foot rule. i simply did not believe it, and being a champion local SASS shooter i wanted to put it to the test. our instructor stood exactly 21 feet away. i was armed with my Glock handgun with paintball modded barrel. as soon as i saw movement from him i was to draw and engage him. as fast as my draw/shoot is. he knifed me like 15x before i could draw. i was amazed
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 11, 2011 20:54:14 GMT
A knife doesn't have a safety to unlock, a part to cock and a barrel to aim. At very close range, that can make a huge difference IMHO (opinion that you can take with a pinch of salt, I never had to gun down a guy in that kind of situation... I never had to gun down anyone in any situation anyway).
I remember a few Kali drills that required to run like a madman to strike at someone. I was very surprised at how easily we could reach and knife our targets, even when they tried very hard to avoid that.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 11, 2011 21:02:36 GMT
keep in mind a Glock doesnt have a part to cock or a safety to take off. its simply draw point fire all in one smoothe motion. i was still unable to do it at 21 feet and closer. oddly enough. past 21 feet even by one foot. i hit him.
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Post by Tendrax on Mar 11, 2011 21:06:30 GMT
Well, out of curiosity I just laid out my tape measure to 21 feet, and timed how fast I could cross it starting from a dead stop. I crossed it in 2 seconds. I'm 6'2" around 240 pounds and pretty out of shape. I have no doubt that I could get the drop on someone with a gun, if they just stood there or backed up and tried to draw.
However, I still believe that if they side stepped I would be screwed. When crossing the distance I felt like the juggernaut, I was going in that direction and anything in my way was screwed, but it was pretty hard to stop or change direction. It would take someone a split second to hop to the side, and I really think it would provide ample time to draw and fire before they could get on you again.
Perhaps I'll get one of my friends to test this out cause now I'm really curious if I'm right. Plus It'd be fun I think. Lol.
Like I said before though, I think a lot of it is going to depend on the training/skill of the two people. As well as the way the man is carrying the gun. Shoulder holster under a buttoned shirt? Yeah good luck. Inside the waistband without a lot of practice? You're gonna cut it close. Duty holster with a tucked in shirt such as a police officer would be set up? I really believe they'd be fine.
Also, I like how everyone is talking about gun safeties, cocking the hammer, or racking the slide. Why would I be carrying without one in the pipe? Why would I bother to cock the hammer? It's either a double action or something like a 1911 carried cocked and locked. When I draw a 1911 the safety just comes off. It's not a conscious thought or effort anymore, and I haven't really trained that much. What if they have a Glock? Or some kind of double action pistol without a safety or hammer to cock? Most modern carry guns it really is just draw and shoot. There's not much between getting it out of the holster and firing it.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 11, 2011 21:08:01 GMT
the reason the 21 foot rule works, is because in the time it takes to travel 21 feet, from the moment your target moves and your brain acknowledges it, and reflex kicks in and you draw your gun, its all ready been to late. If it was the other way around, and a knife guy was at 21 feet and YOU drew on him rather than reacting, youd get him long before he got to you. same principle applying, from the moment he saw the draw, and his brain said "react" its too late. the moral is...if you see a guy with a knife threatening you. shoot his ass. don't wait til he moves towards you. by pulling the knife he has already expressed his intent to do bodily harm and death, he has forfeited himself in that regard, from a law enforcement stand point. Quite simply, you see a weapon you don't wait to see what he does, you gun him down and then worry about it.
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Post by chrisperoni on Mar 11, 2011 21:13:03 GMT
LOL :lol:
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Post by Tendrax on Mar 11, 2011 21:14:40 GMT
Yeah, I understand that human reaction time is what does it. But I can side step about 4 or 5 feet in half the time it takes me to draw a gun. No, you're not gonna get your gun out before he reaches you, what I'm getting at is maybe you'd be able to not be there anymore when he does.
Ok, I seriously need to get one of my friends to help me test this, cause now I just need to know. Lol.
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Post by ghost on Mar 11, 2011 21:22:59 GMT
I'd like to know as well. I know that people like standing their ground, but what is the problem with running away as fast as you can, as soon as you see a guy pull a knife at 21 feet?
Pull out your gun and blow a whole clip just by turning your head and your shoulder a bit, with your arm extended while running away (yah sounds like the movies)?
I'd give the edge to the gunman in this scenario.
edit: I think this is testable Tendrax- get a buddy to try and run you down with a butter knife, while you run away soon as you see him draw at 21.
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Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 11, 2011 21:26:53 GMT
I have a gut feeling you would have to be one hell of a sidestepper to get the time and distance you need to shoot your attacker before he gets you. IMHO, you would have to ; sidestep fast enough, far enough, and be able to either draw your gun while moving or getting far enough that you can draw your gun before your attacker get too close. In most cases, I believe the attacker will have a lot more momentum and speed than you, and might not have to change his heading that much before reaching you.
Take that with a pinch of salt, I never had to run like a madman toward someone with a gun. I only run like a madman when I'm missing my bus ...
Edit : About stepping backyards, I think that would be more likely to work in the gunman's favour. However, I believe the gunman would have to back very quickly and well, too, or else the knife-armed atacker will still keep his advantage due to his momentum and initiative.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 11, 2011 21:41:07 GMT
stepping back and to the side doesnt really work either because the attacker can see it and just change direction...just because hes running at you doent mean hes a train and has to go in a strait line he can move too. also if your like me, you wont be "running away" then you'l just die tired and winded. ![x_x](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/dead.png) lmsao
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Post by Tendrax on Mar 11, 2011 21:42:15 GMT
Well, I'm leaving tonight for a 4 day trip, but when I get back I'm gonna try and get one of my friends to help me with this. I've got a rubber knife with sheath, and a couple of airsoft pistols with several kinds of holsters. So plenty of appropriate gear to test this. Lol.
Sebastian, Personally I'm capable of drawing my gun while side stepping. Keep in mind I'm not saying that it would absolutely work 100% of the time, just that I think It's would even the odds a bit.
Again though, it comes down to training. I spend a fair amount of time "training" with my airsoft guns just because I find it fun. Kind of like the kid with the stick or wooden sword pretending to kill trolls and orcs. Same concept, but I'm using airsoft guns and pretending to defend myself from attackers. If I gave my friend the gun and holster, he'd be royally screwed no matter what he does cause he has zero training with any kind of firearm.
I also timed my draw of a 1911 from an inside the waistband holster. Just about 2 seconds as well. So if I can get even an extra second from the sidestep it could be enough time to get on target and fire. Especially if I can draw during the step, which I find to not be terribly hard.
[EDIT: Made a quick little video to more clearly explain what I mean.
Moving in a circle to be essentially behind him as he reaches where you were. Again, human reaction time. The guy running might be physically capable of changing direction in time, but will he react fast enough? I don't think he would. and if I started drawing and moving at the same time I think there's a pretty high chance of being able to get on target before he can turn around and get to you again. Just a theory though. If I get a chance to test it I'll try to get it on video for you guys.]
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