Sébastien
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Post by Sébastien on Mar 11, 2011 22:08:11 GMT
Your knowledge on guns and their use is certainly greater than mine, I never used a firearm, I never even held one in hand.
Although I agree that sidestepping and/or stepping back would help, I also think that those kind of moves require more concentration and give less speed than moving forward (on average, with proper training, your mileage would certainly vary). So, I think someone who moves sideways or back might not be able to draw as quickly as someone standing still, thus decreasing the advantage of increasing the distance between you and the bad guy... but like I said, I no know nothing about guns and their use, other than where's the business end and where's the button that makes the business end go boom...If only I know how to unlock the safety on a gun...
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Post by Federico on Mar 11, 2011 22:41:00 GMT
True. Hence the mozambique drill. But at that distance, I'd much prefer a weapon that I can use over and over and over rather than a one shot deal. What if you miss?
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 11, 2011 22:46:40 GMT
Running away combined with a draw...it looks like it would work. In all the HG courses taken we have never tried this. It might be difficult to implement with live fire. Sounds like the domain for Airsoft. Gabriel Suarez teaches a technique called The Pekiti Take Off. It combines getting of the "X" with a controlled draw of the HG. One of Suarez' students write: I'm not sure what he means by "open" vs. "closed" front cover. My guess is "unbuttoned" (flapping) vs. "buttoned" (draped). I've had many opportunities to draw from "open" front cover in training--the drawing hand must find the cover's "edge" to brush it aside while reaching and drawing the weapon. Two years ago I took a weapons-based Krav Maga seminar where we practiced combining KM with HG. I discovered the benefits of appendix carry there. Even when drawing from a completely concealed weapon ("closed" front cover), it was predictably "fast." We did not do the Pekiti Take Off. I'm looking forward to seeing this video Advanced Close Range Gunfighting and studying Suarez' solution to this problem.
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Post by Tendrax on Mar 11, 2011 22:53:39 GMT
Larry, that sound like pretty much the same thing I've been suggesting but much more refined and more clearly explained. Nice to know there's an expert out there that found it to be functional.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Mar 11, 2011 22:54:37 GMT
weird. I meant run and pull your gun out...point it over your shoulder with your torso turned and fire the whole clip while running away... Run as soon as you can react to the person and keep running the time that it takes you to un-holster and fire. (2-3 secs?) I am assuming that the scenario was that a holstered gunman and a sheathed "knife-man" recognize the threat to each other at exactly 21 ft. (Barring that super crazy pro you linked Saito who draws and fires in .2 of a second) I'm just trying to say that you cannot catch a person who is faster than you, at 21 ft... Is it reasonable to believe that even if they are slower, can you catch up to someone fast enough before he he pulls out his gun properly? I'm not sure how long you were planning on running btw to die out of breath.... ![:D](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) :lol: On the other hand, I don't see much hope if the situation were reversed. Trying to knife a guy who was the aggressor and already has his gun out, is just pure suicide. I really was hoping that there was a reliable way to close the distance without being blown to bits (for example bank robber/pirate/etc. is about to execute you ina hostage situation and all you have is a knife)
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 11, 2011 23:09:06 GMT
I think your instincts are correct. Your Airsoft training gives you insight that I do not have.
By moving off-line you also set your attacker with a problem to solve (why make life easy for him?). And, if he is accelerating straight at you, by moving obliquely you will make it difficult for him to arrest his forward movement or redivert it. (Ward demonstrates this in the second vid clip at 5:36.)
I'm interested in the results of your training experiment with your buddies.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 11, 2011 23:25:38 GMT
not many people can draw and fire in .02 of a second but...sub second is pretty easy. and when your talking 21 feet and closing on a man size target. not too hard. BUT like i said you gotta recognize the threat and blow his ass away before he makes the first move. its all action vs re-action. although the best way to deal with it is AVOID the sort of situation where this is even relevant. another thing we learned in training was there's no such thing as 1 shot 1 kill. The media makes a big deal when they find these criminals with 10+ holes in them but the fact of the matter is we are trained to fire until the threat is no more. if hes moving keep firing until he stops
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 11, 2011 23:43:17 GMT
I wanted to highlight these. (I'm listening). I know I prefer recognizing and avoiding threats. I'm a peace-loving man.
However, as I just told my wife yesterday, "When someone offers you violence, you must respond with overwhelming counter force." Note, I did not say "violence." It is the attacker who "violating." The defender is stopping the violence. It could take a few rounds.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 12, 2011 0:47:06 GMT
i like how you put that Larry. if you dont mind ill add "overwhelming counter force" to my vocabulary.
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avery
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Post by avery on Mar 12, 2011 1:08:54 GMT
you know, it's funny; I was just talking about this this past weekend with soem friends. We're all avid shooters, and one of the guys is a fella who teaches concealed carry classes as well as the local P.D. He had some of those red rubber training pistol, an air soft and a training blade. When one guy would run at him, he was able to clear a stage one holster and get off several shots. When I held the training knife in hand and threw, he couldn't clear fast enough. Thing is, when throwing a knife, you have to be a certain distance from the man. The smaller the knife the more exact your paces have to be. The one point he made was that it depends heavily on the holster. If it were a correctional officers holster, he couldn't clear all the stages to pull the pistol before the distance was closed and he was sliced.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 12, 2011 1:13:05 GMT
ugh the corrections officer holsters SUCKKKKK they are total junk. i hated using those when we did escorts off prison grounds. Ill never accept any substitute for my safariland SLS level 2 holster. i own both the tactical drop leg model and the regular duty model. they are excelent form fit holsters and scary fast to draw from.
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avery
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Post by avery on Mar 15, 2011 3:22:11 GMT
Btw, moved this to "other weapons" since we're talking about both knives and guns. Didn't realize it was in the review section. Lonely Wolf Forge - oh yeah, I hate those correctional holsters, but definitely understand the benefits. The SLS 2's, how annoying is it to adjust the tactical version for draw? I bought a cheap knock off and the strap clips would always start to get loose on a course. I finally had a friend of mine who's a saddle maker make me a tact holster; buckles instead of those non slip clips and I love the darned thing.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 15, 2011 4:05:20 GMT
idk what ones you had but....ours were big bulky leather things with cheap broken snap thumb breaks that didnt work any more. you were lucky if the gun didnt fall over when you bent over. ohio has a weak budget... .38 caliber revolvers and holsters older than Doc Holiday
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 15, 2011 5:37:57 GMT
Talking about bull there is some there. I don’t have a stop watch, but estimate 2½ seconds from the time his hand touched the top of his knife until it struck the target. A lot can happen in 2½ seconds. Not only that, he telegraphed his intention. Good show but far from what to expect in a tight.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 16, 2011 5:31:06 GMT
yeah i coulda emptied my 6 shooter in him in 2 1/2 seconds especially with blatant telegraphing.
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Post by KaOsBlaKbLaDe on Mar 17, 2011 23:44:31 GMT
this is the silliest of any discussions i've read on this site to date. It's flawed from the get go. First, if you are DEFENDING, you have no element of surprise whatsoever. Second you are DEFENDING, meaning to me, the gun is already unholstered otherwise, what's the threat? The 21 foot rule applies to agressive idividuals with the initial intent to kill, and relies COMPLETELY on the element of surprise. If some dude comes running out of an alley as fast as he can toward me and my weapon is holstered, then i might buy the farm, but seeing as that is not the typical type of situation encountered by most civilians in RL it hardly seems valid here. And you can rest assured that if I'm in a location where that type of scenario should be expected(combat maybe), well long story short i'm already gripped up, lined up and tracking my sights and i'll now give anyone with a knife 3 feet.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 18, 2011 14:55:29 GMT
If I'm the guy with the gun at the very least I'm going to take a step. The guy just stands there like a dummy.
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Taran
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Post by Taran on Mar 19, 2011 1:45:35 GMT
The Teuller Drill wasn't designed when peace officers (law enforcement, plus others such as constables and corrections officers) were wearing level 1 retention holsters. It starts being an issue with a level 2 and a simple impossibility with a level 3. Forget about it if you have a level 4.
Carrying concealed with a level 1 is effectively the same as open carrying with a level 2 or higher. Something must be moved out of the way to get the weapon drawn. So the Teuller Drill applies.
It is my distinct hope that no one here is stupid enough to open carry with a level 1 retention holster. You may have an advantage if someone tries to knife you from a distance, but you're screwed otherwise. Especially in a crowd. Might not ever know your weapon is gone till you need it.
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Post by Larry Jordan on Mar 19, 2011 10:59:36 GMT
I have rarely seen anything greater than a level 1 at the gunstore. Most are level 0.
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Post by Tendrax on Mar 23, 2011 19:41:53 GMT
So, unfortunately guys my friend was unable to help me due to a family emergency. We're going to try and do it another time though. When we get the chance to test it I'll be sure to post the video in here though.
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