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Post by Student of Sword on Feb 1, 2011 23:17:36 GMT
Before we start, I like to define what I think of as a "tactical sword". My definition is a functional sword with simple and easy construction method. Something that can be construct fairly quickly. So let go to my fictional scenario on how a need of such a sword come about.
THE BACKGROUND STORY:
Let imagine that you are visiting friends or family in a place (cities, provinces, states) where private ownership of guns and swords are illegal. All sudden the area experience an economic catastrophe which lead to a state of general lawlessness. The mayor, cops, government officials all left and took their family with them to a better place. The government no longer exist and the citizens are left to fend for themselves. You are trapped there.
Gangs in large number began to terrorize the population. Gangsters organize in large group began to raid various neighborhoods, killing, raping, and pillaging. The gangsters armed themselves with various make shifted and improvised weapons. The weapons were created by gang members who learn how to make them while in prisons. They are well armed and well organized.
Several neighborhoods have been completely overran with gangs. So the people in the neighborhood where you stay with decide to form a Neighborhood Self-Defense Unit (acronym NSDU) compose of volunteers. The main problem is that they have no weapons of any kind. Knowing that you are a sword collector, your host ask you to be the adviser for this NSDU
Luckily in the neighborhood, there are several metallurgists and machinists. But none of them experienced making swords.
Assumptions: (1) There people who know how to perform proper heat treatment. (2) There are small cottage manufacturing companies with some modern machinery but no CNC machine. (3) There is an abandon Home Depot in the neighborhood fully stocked. (4) Access to high carbon steel sheet/plate of approximately 5mm thickness from a local manufacturing company, suitable steel for sword. (5) You can cut and grind steel.
Your task is to help advise the metallugists and machinists in making swords to arm the new local volunteers. Time is of the essence. You need to come up with a very simple design that is quickest and easiest to construct, yet balance and functional. This is not the time and place to design a beautiful sword.
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Post by armchairwarrior on Feb 1, 2011 23:26:08 GMT
Gimme 15 mins... EDIT: There, it doesn't get much more simple than that... basically it's a machete pounded out of a lawnmower blade.
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Post by Sir Tre on Feb 4, 2011 19:08:41 GMT
not bad dude
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Post by Tendrax on Feb 4, 2011 20:39:04 GMT
[/img] There, it doesn't get much more simple than that... basically it's a machete pounded out of a lawnmower blade.[/quote] Ahahahaha, ahh, internet humor. Nice design dude. I kind of did this a long time ago. In the physical realm, as opposed to a drawing. You know those metal fence posts you use for chicken wire? They're usually green? Yeah I made a sword out of one of those when I was like 14. Used my neighbors barbecue and porch as a forge an anvil and hammered it flat. then used some tin snips to make a point on the end. Ugliest damn thing ever, and I never put an edge on it. I think if I tried it again and had some tools like a belt sander and a blow torch I could make it much nicer. Surprisingly it's fairly well balanced, but the handle is a bit of an odd shape. Not sure why but it makes me think of a jian.
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Post by ChrisRiley93 on Feb 16, 2011 20:15:29 GMT
Your first home-made sword reminds me of when I made a throwing star out of copper back in 5/6th grade. Ahh, the memories
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Post by Hiroshi on Mar 13, 2011 22:44:16 GMT
EDIT: fixed the "grinder issue" Here is my design, I hope I stayed within the limits of the give hypothetical. Blade Length 42.5cm Guard Width 12cm Inside Ring Diameter 3.25 Grip Length 11.25cm Click the little green box twice to open up actual size | V
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 13, 2011 23:05:32 GMT
That is a really sweet sword, Hiroshi, but given the size, isn't it actually more of a long dagger than a sword?
Anyways, I like it. I used to have a 440 display knife that was kinda Persian inspired that had twin rings just like that and I simply loved the amount of grip options they afforded. I got rid of it some time ago because it literally had no tang, and the hilt was hollow and broken (I got it second hand from someone who was going to trash it), but it was still a great little knife. Not the best looking and the sheath was downright gaudy, but still nice.
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Post by Federico on Mar 13, 2011 23:38:41 GMT
Hey Student of Sword,
I'm going to be a party pooper, but in your chaotic scenario, I'm not sure people would be well served by a sword. IMHO, something more along the lines of a hewing spear would be much better, with a solid assembly yet detachable spearhead (so it can double as a knife).
Why?
-It requires less metal & is easier to manufacture than a sword -It has more range -It's easier to use than a sword -A detachable tip doubling as a knife can be very useful as a tool and avoids the doubling of equipment -It can be used for hunting & fishing -If you travel in groups, you can fight in formation
In your scenario, we go back to a primitive society, where the wildlife provided the food. Pretty much all the primitive societies had spears. I doubt that many had swords. Also, spears have remained a prime actor in battle since their invention for a much longuer time than swords.
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Post by Hiroshi on Mar 14, 2011 0:14:21 GMT
haha how did that happen? it started out 30in long a swear!!!! guess the angle grinder got away from me!
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 14, 2011 0:16:21 GMT
To be a party pooper to your party pooper, Federico, there's a few problems with your idea:
- A good utility knife is usually small, about 4-5" long; the extreme minimum for spearhead blades is about 5.5", so it's not too bad, but that decreases the range. It also kind of goes counter to the idea of a hewing spear which is, if I remember correctly, by definition, a long bladed spear. - Most spear hafts are 6-9' long, thereby being cumbersome and limited in where they can be used, so you'd need to use a 4-5' shaft, decreasing the range further to about that of a sword, but with much less cutting surface. - A spear is only easy to use if all you do with it is jab. That's fine for hunting or fishing, but against a human opponent who will also most likely be armed, it's not, especially if you have a 4' shaft; they can counter that pretty easily and it takes training to be able to counter with the butt. - A detachable head also means that it's weaker than a permanently affixed head. It could be broken off or become lodged inside something and lost. The only way you could do something of a quality design would be to have a notched shaft you can slide the knife's tang into, insert a mekugi or two, and then lash it for good measure, but that kind of defeats the purpose, as you have to carry extra stuff just to have a spear.
Also, spears have been an integral part of primitive societies due to their ease of manufacture (as simple as lashing a sharp rock to a stick) and ease of use in hunting (just stab it). As for fighting, in a charge, you just have to hold it out in front of you and run (or gallop if you're cavalry) towards your enemy. My experience with spear fighting only extends to watching demonstrations and techniques of spear play, so I could be wrong, but from what I've seen, it requires a good deal of training, just like the sword.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 14, 2011 0:18:37 GMT
Haha, I wasn't complaining, just pointing out the misnomer. I actually think something like that would work just as well as a longer sword. It's about the size of a kindjal, which is a great little fighting dagger; at least, that's what the Cossacks used it for (use it for, I think; I believe they still carry it and the shashka).
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Post by Federico on Mar 14, 2011 0:47:23 GMT
How dare you poop on my party poop?? :mrgreen: I disagree with some of your points though.
I don't think that in these circumstances, what we'd be looking for is optimal equipment, but rather versatile equipment that provides options. Sure, an optimal utility knife has a pretty short blade. However, kukris, bowies and knifes of the sort are pretty good survival and task knifes. With a +- 12 inches long hewing type spearhead, you end up with a knife of the sort. Much more useful than a sword for tasks, but granted, not optimal.
As for the haft, I agree with you, a really long haft is not very practical. However, something along the lines of 5-6 with a 1 foot blade gives you much more range than a sword, and because you have a haft rather than a long blade, you have the option of shortening your grip, thus fighting from closer range. You can halfsword a longsword, but it'll just end up injuring someone untrained. Again, options. I must concede that in closed spaces, the spear may have some problems.
Fighting wise, I partially agree. To be proficient with a spear requires training, like a sword, but like you said, thrusting is easy, easier than with a sword. And, I don't think it's that easy to counter a spear thrust, and the long haft gives you a lot of leverage. The longuer range and the ability to use group tactics make it a better "squad" weapon IMHO.
Concerning your last point, you're right. But, I think the stuff you'll be carrying will be lighter than having to carry an extra bowie like blade.
It's all about versatility.
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Post by Bryn on Mar 14, 2011 0:59:55 GMT
Okay, party pooping on someone's actual misinformation is fine, but you're party pooping on a hypothetical situation. Assuming that yes, you have the right amount of materials to make spears, then the sword fills the nitch of weapon only. For which a shorter sword works great, say as a back up weapon to some sort of spear. So, assuming that you've already made spears, then the sword pattern to use (in my mind) is the Gladius. Simple to make, easy and instinctive to use, good in close quarters where a spear or longer weapon would be unweildy, great in combo with a shield, etc.
After you make spears and shields, make Gladii out of bar-stock with grip-tape or slab handles, or both.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 14, 2011 1:06:03 GMT
well guys....it worked for isenguard....about as simple as it gets eh? id substitute the leather wrap with my fav brand/color of duct tape. army digital for me i think...or maybe gold bling? Also for the record about spears...IMHO. spears suck unless your in a formation. 1 on 1 they are not so useful. maybe if paired with a shield, or a more experienced fighter. a swords pretty strait forward though.
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 14, 2011 1:57:09 GMT
You've never seen Chinese spear fighting, have you? It's extremely rapid and versatile; there are a great number of thrusts, cuts, and slashes, as well as several ways to use the butt as a bludgeon. It also incorporates empty-hand martial arts to further aid your spear play. Also, as Federico mentioned, a sword takes a lot more practice than a spear; it's generally anything but straight forward. Federico: True. I'd want something like the discontinued Cold Steel 12" bowie machete with the clip sharpened and a paracord wrap instead of the plastic grips. It'd serve as a great machete and would be ready to be lashed to spear pole with minimal effort. I don't think anyone would be taking a longsword into a situation like this, even if it gave you a great range. I'd honestly choose something much shorter; a dao, preferably. Anyways, while you can increase or decrease your range with a spear rather freely, you really only get best performance at about mid-range when you grip it like a staff. Any further and it becomes unwieldy, like the Southern Chinese long pole; any less and it's still unwieldy since you have all that excess at the back to swing around your body. However, doing that would allow for quick jabs and full thrusts, as well as the option to let go with one hand and swing it around like a bat. I think it depends on the type of spear; someone with experience in the spear correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I've seen, Euro and Japanese spears tend to be much heavier than the qiang due to their construction. The qiang is made of light and flexible wax wood with a steel head affixed with a socket, whereas Euros are socketed, but are of much heavier ash or oak and yari are tanged, meaning a lot more metal, bolsters, pommels, lacquer, etc. The way I see it, a heavier spear will move slower in the thrust unless its user is particularly skilled. And if all you can do is thrust that heavy spear, it becomes more of a liability. Granted, that's probably mistaken, but that's what I can gather from my limited knowledge of physics.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 14, 2011 2:00:13 GMT
i dont disregard the spear if your experienced. just for inexperienced random civilians i think a machete type sword is more optimal. thats all
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 14, 2011 2:12:16 GMT
Now that makes more sense.
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Post by Student of Sword on Mar 14, 2011 2:14:18 GMT
Two points:
(1) Yes, spears are excellent weapons. However, spears are generally better as formation weapons. A person still need a sword of some kind for last ditch defense. Both the Swiss pikemen and German Landsknechts were famous for their pole weapons. However, they do carry short swords. So, let assume they already have spears, they still need swords.
(2) One thing I noticed about some of the designs is that balance is neglected. If I was not design one, it will have at least profile taper. Not distal tapper because it require far more works/times than it is allowed. The same is true of fuller, too time consuming. And I will replace the distal taper and fuller with holes. Scorpion Sword and Knives give me the idea of holes.
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Post by Lonely Wolf Forge on Mar 14, 2011 2:21:54 GMT
i agree balance can be impotant, but on a machete type slashing blade its not so important. if anything it should be slightly tip heavy. i like the ideas of holes as well
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Mar 14, 2011 2:23:50 GMT
True enough, but again, I reference the qiang, which is a very light spear that can be wielded effectively out of formation, particularly when it's shortened to about a 4-5' haft. But even with that, a sword of some type is a must for when things get too close for a spear.
This is definitely true from what I've seen. Most spears are nothing more than a head and haft, balanced out by the haft's length. Yari have a small pommel, but a really large blade with a triangle cross-section, while some spears (mostly Greek) and a butt cap on the end to counter-balance the head; the qiang, again, has a small leaf blade with a diamond cross-section, lightening it quite a bit in the manner I think you're talking. However, as for holes, I dunno. From what I hear, that weakens the blade, but I could be wrong.
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