Real swords with modern fencing grips

Being Captain of a University Fencing Team, perhaps I can help a little. The purpose of both french and pistol grips on foils is mainly point control. ESPECIALLY so with the pistol grip. Also the modern foil comes from the smallsword ( if I recall correctly 17th century?) and the schools associated with teaching gentlemen the art of smallsword as a means of protecting honor, but more often than not a smallsword was a costume accessory.

That being said, since foil, epee, and sabre are meant for competition, not killing/injuring like most weapons their handles are designed to score points in their allotted sport. You score in foil by depressing the tip, with a rather small target, the torso. Thus point control is essential. The foil is a thrusting only tool, not like the rapier, which was also primarily thrusting, the grip and often oversized guard are meant to protect ones hand in duel when thrusting. A cut to the hand could mean life/death or at the very least the end of the duel. In contrast getting hit on the hand in foil means merely an "off target" and no harm done. So the grips can be customized to maximize point-scoring potential, rather than self defense.


Sabres, however, often have a bell guard or similar finger guard to protect against slashes. A majority of sabres also have a curved grip, like fencing sabres do, to help amplify the velocity of one's swing/cut.

Likewise the epee has mush the same reasoning as the foil. With a larger cup guard because even fingers are target in epee.

Also you will notice that the blades have a triangular cross section with fencing weapons, and that isn't found to my knowledge in real weapons because fencing weapons try to be as fast as possible, while maintaining structural intergrity in order to score POINTS not injure/kill. A pliable foil, sabre, epee, would hurt and could possibly kill in an actual duel (as could a well aimed turkey leg for all that's worth) but again their designs are meant to score points in their respective sports, not win duels/battles.

Hope this helps

For what it's worth you can do a sort of "half pistol grip" on many swept-hilt Italian rapiers, with one or two fingers above the crossguard giving a bit more control. Still having several fingers holding the handle is probably a good thing though, as it will help balance the blade. Do bear in mind as you look into swords that, as the friendly musketeer above alluded to, "real" swords are much bulkier and heavier than sport-fencing swords because the former are designed to do damage and hold up in combat while the latter are optimized for speed and control. So a different grip may be awkward at first, but part of that is because the physics of the sword are quite different from what you'd be used to.

If you really want something close to a fencing foil in terms of how to use it I'd look into the smallsword; the Cold Steel version seems to get good reviews but it's not cheap.

Just my two cents:

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For self-defense situation, inside, in closed spaces, or anywhere: as a fencing addict myself, I would be pretty confident in the point of a rapier, smallsword or sword-cane being very dangerous and efficient. In fact, in a corridor for example, since it doesn't require space to perform, it's quite perfect!

I never saw a pistol-grip on a "real" weapon...the closest thing I could think of would be a sword-cane like this one by Cold Steel: or even better (more "classy") this one:
In fact, I just remembered a pair of duelling sabers (or were they swords?) Micheal Tinker Pearce had done that had a kind of what you could call pistol-grip...closer to the grip of an actual pistol in fact...and I think an historical example served as inspiration and had the same kind of grip...but, of course, I can't seem to be able to find a pic...so don't quote me on this...

D'Artagnan: I agree modern fencing weapons were/are developped toward the sport perspective, but: they are still very close to "real" weapons, without the button they are more effective than a turkey leg, come on! Even squared, the point on an electric épée can hurt! And many very pointy duelling swords are very close to a modern épée or foil (check the ones used by Lifar and Cuevas here: ...of course, no pistol grip) and triangular cross section is found on lots and lots of historical weapons: small swords, estoc, rapiers, dagger (rondel, ballock, misericorde and, closer to us: bayonets).

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I'm not persuaded: a thrust takes less space (in width and height) than a cut, a thrust takes the length of the blade and of your extended arm (or even partly extended): useful in narrow corridors and/or low ceiling rooms, for example. Also, a thrust can put someone down pretty quick: a piece of steel through liver, lungs (pneumothorax), heart, eye (to brain), major artery, spine...

Yeah, if I had to defend myself in my apartment I think I'd be better off with something long and pointy since there probably wouldn't be room to swing a sword. As I understand it the rapier basically came about because of this; thrusting was the only viable attack in the confined spaces where people needed self-defense so longswords were made progressively lighter and thinner until they evolved into something new.

a patton sword might fit the style you are looking for tho technically it is a saber. also a jian would be great... i mix some fencing into my jianfa and the moves adapt well to the sword.

No sarcasm was intended; nor a criticism of abilities of persons I only know as pixels and have never seen use a blade. It was proposed that a short sword or rapier would be a preference for personal defence. While these weapons do have some advantages as thrusters I believe the relative blade mass risks allowing the opponent to survive and do harm even after successive strikes. Thus I would suggest a type blade that provides more edge for larger wounds. ( Bastard sword? 16th Cent Cut and thrust? The Zulu Assegai.... )

I do agree that a heavier blade would probably be more effective in a no-holds-barred fight, I just don't think it would be practical to swing one in confined spaces (though I will +1 that assegai or other short spear). Mace might work since it's a lot shorter than a sword, and could probably be swung. I think Sean has kind of an interesting point too...at the risk of offending some of my Eastern counterparts I think it's safe to say "most people" equate swords with katanas and DIAGONAL CUT!!!!! because they saw it in Kill Bill. I'm not sure how they would react to somebody who didn't fight that way.

The jian comment is interesting...I actually just bought one as, while I know zilch about the traditional use of the sword, it strikes me as being well suited to cut-and-thrust type fighting...like a stockier, minimalist sidesword or something.

Shotgun is definitely the best choice though.

I can see the appeal of a rapier or other thrusting piece in a hallway, but I don't think it would work well. What happens if I grab something like a kitchen chair and use it to block or bind the sword? What happens if I manage to pass the tip? How far can you back up in your hallway if you need to? What happens if we go from a 1D hallway fight to a 2D fight in a living room? Then the length of the rapier becomes a problem as well.

I think a shorter sword that can both cut and thrust would be more useful and flexible. When you look at weapons designed for close quarters, they're short with heavy blades that can both cut and thrust. Close quarters on ships - dirk, cutlass. On the battle field and too close for polearms - gladius, baselard, katzbalger.

It's my understanding that most jian tend to be fairly flexible so while they have a diamond cross section, they don't necessarily thrust well. But that may just be the lighter wushu and forms swords.