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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 3:55:07 GMT
www.facebook.com/v/1422721939021This is a shot into the top of a crucible containing wootz, REaL wootz. This is during the cool down phase, the steel underneath the layer of flux is just giving off some gases. Jeff Pringle made it, and it was a very nice ingot.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 15, 2010 4:46:16 GMT
ok first of all I would like to say this is very much awesome, exciting and cool. what's the story here? how did they figure it out? do we know the process is being done correctly? have there been scientific comparisons of steel made this way to the historic stuff? I'm not asking this to doubt the veracity of the claim that this is wootz but rather I am looking for information so I can learn more about wootz. I know there have been some smiths doing this for a little while now but this is the first time some one I know here has some sort of direct knowledge of it. so come on Sam there's more to this story, what can you tell us?
no matter what this steel is, it still won't ever be the next magical win steel. but this is very cool
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 7:22:23 GMT
VERY cool. And I'm with Tom, I want to know details.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 17:21:02 GMT
The wootz is a great thing, I am quite glad they figured out a way to bring it back. Very cool you got to see the creation of some. Would love to see some pictures of the ingot too.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 18:10:49 GMT
Tom, I will elaborate more later but let me tell you this for now, forget everything you have read about wootz on any swordforum, especially sbg.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 18:14:33 GMT
Man this is a cool thread, i am intersted in hearing the story, +1 from me
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 18:24:48 GMT
That is some sexy metal for sure! ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2010 18:31:10 GMT
Does that mean that we also have to forget what experts in the field related to such things as crucible steels have said or written as well? Liked the video, reminded me of the sun.
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on May 15, 2010 18:41:46 GMT
Whoooooaaaaaaa. What is going on in there? Looks hawt....
All I know (or think I know) is Wootz is some sorta steel used in the past, was called Damascus Steel or something, reportedly able to cut through rock or something ridiculous like that (and other swords too?), and no-one knows how to make it anymore. How do you know it's wootz steel, anyways? And is what I said above about wootz what you meant by forgetting everything you've read on a sword forum about it? Maybe I'm fusing the two (damascus and wootz) together in my mind. Look forward to your post later about it.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 16, 2010 21:31:18 GMT
well Dom, this may well be information I need to forget, but Wootz, as I understand it, was a steel made in the middle east that was unusually high quality compared to other steels available in the midle ages. it had a grain pattern to it and was often traded to the west in or around the city of Damascus which it was sometimes named after. myth and legend surround damascus/wootz thicker than flies around fresh feces on a hot summer's day and some of them include cutting rocks and other swords and slik scarves dropped on the edge and who knows what all else. it is one of the magical super steels of awesome and win. it was also faked not only in modern day but in medieval times as well.
many smiths, metalurgists, anthropoligists, etc. have sought to recreate it all with little to no success until (perhaps) recently.
I have read reports on the net that claim historical Wootz has structures called carbon nano-tubes that have some amazing effects on the steel.
recently Angel Sword has claimed to have discovered the secret of making wootz and has been marketing it as "Techno-wootz" I have heard reports of a few other smiths with, in my opinion, better reputations claiming to have figured out wootz.
I am very interested in hearing more about this newly rediscovered wootz.
so come on Sam, SPILL IT!
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 21:44:48 GMT
I am not well schooled on wootz steel. but i have worked in a foundry and in a steel mill. when i worked in the steel mill it was above the furnace and i have seen good old carbon steel with a pyrite melt at 304 deg farenheit. looks no different from this in the crucible, to the naked eye. also the ingot shown, in order to properly analyze, would have to be shaved and the shaving placed under a microscope to determine any difference.
not disputing any claims, merely noting what we can see with the naked eye. if any one here has worked QA in a steel mill or foundry, they would probably say more indepth along these lines.
However, if this is wootz of legend, i definitely want to here more. when it comes to metallurgy, i am no expert. but i am still an enthusiast in the field and would like to expand my knowledge base.
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on May 16, 2010 22:18:27 GMT
Hey, Tom. I think I've read that nano-tubes thing somewhere before as well. Sounds crazy. All metallurgy's crazy to me though, lol.
Wonder what the patterning would look like if that steel ingot was polished. Would be pointless to polish an ingot, I'd think, but hell, with that patterning, it'd make a beautiful paper weight. ;D Of course, that would keep the metal from being used for a sword, and we can't have that!
Yeah, that Angel Sword place gives me a huge B.S. vibe. Techno-wootz my ass. Well, actually, if it dances to techno music, that wouldn't be that bad.
I also want to learn more of T3H WINRAR WOOTZ-OMG steel, Sam.
"it is one of the magical super steels of awesome and win." hahahahahahah
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 0:16:12 GMT
I read this article some time ago...found it interesting. How does it relate to this? John D. Verhoeven. 2001. The Mystery of Damascus Blades. Scientific American, Vol. 284, 74-79 (January 2001). Used to have a link to a free PDF version of this article, but that has gone away. Sorry! I found this interesting as well: asoac.org/bulletins/96_feuerbach_damascus.pdf-- Richard
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 0:25:52 GMT
According to the wonderful world of wiki
The techniques for its making died out around 1700 after the principal sources of special ores needed for its production were depleted. Those sources contained trace amounts of tungsten and/or vanadium which other sources did not. Oral tradition in India maintains that a small piece of either white or black hematite (or old wootz) had to be included in each melt, and that a minimum of these elements must be present in the steel for the proper segregation of the micro carbides to take place.
Wootz was possibly rediscovered in the mid 19th century by the Russian metallurgist Pavel Petrovich Anosov (see Bulat steel), who refused to reveal the secret of its manufacture other than to write five one-sentence descriptions of different ways in which it could be made.
Master bladesmith Alfred Pendray re-discovered what may be the classic techniques in the early 1980s, as later verified by Dr. John Verhoeven.
Another method of wootz production, using modern technology, was developed around 1980 by Dr. Oleg Sherby and Dr. Jeff Wadsworth at Stanford University and Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. Even though this steel had the characteristic bands of microcarbides, whether or not this could be considered wootz was disputed by Verhoeven since it was not made in a classical manner.
Recently, researcher Peter Paufler from Dresden University of Technology in Germany has discovered evidence of carbon nanotubes in Wootz steel, although this is disputed[citation needed].
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Post by mythosequidae on May 17, 2010 0:59:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 1:37:15 GMT
from one of these posted articles i reiterate with a quote.... "A major problem in doing scientific experiments on wootz Damascus steel is the inability to obtain samples for study. Such study requires that the blades be cut into sections for microscopic examination, and small quantities must be sacrificed for destructive chemical analysis."
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 1:47:42 GMT
Teach a man to fish hehe. great info hunt everyone! You found the good stuff (mostly).
the story is, Jeff Pringle made it and has been studying wootz for quite some time. He made that ingot at F&B hammer in.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 3:44:27 GMT
sorry sam, we are not doubting that someone has found the secret of wootz, only that the vid and ingot pic is non-conclusive without scientific testing. if this is the stuff that legend is made from, i would be one of the first interested in it. however, as most smiths in the forum would probably attest to, the main meat of a sword is the smith him(her)self, as the best steel, without smithing and forging being best is still substandard.
if this is wootz, and if this smith is good at what he does, then he should be able to mass an extensive customer base rapidly. i still beluieve that modern steels and craftsmanship exceed the traditional in process, when done right, but, the sheer historic value of a lost art steel would be a definite sell. i would be standing in line myself.
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Post by mythosequidae on May 17, 2010 3:55:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 4:21:27 GMT
Easy to claim wootz, hard to actually be wootz. Many who have claimed the fame of the name are just profiting off the legendary name of wootz steel. Not saying this is or isn't, but it would not be the first time someone suckered people by claiming to be something it really isn't. A perfect example is calling pattern welded steel damascus steel. Not really the same thing but similar enough to fool people.
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