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Post by sicheah on May 17, 2010 4:40:34 GMT
Easy to claim wootz, hard to actually be wootz. Many who have claimed the fame of the name are just profiting off the legendary name of wootz steel. Not saying this is or isn't, but it would not be the first time someone suckered people by claiming to be something it really isn't. A perfect example is calling pattern welded steel damascus steel. Not really the same thing but similar enough to fool people. If I am not mistaken, that Hanwei blade is made 'wootz' I would prefer to call it crucible steel. Though personally I would treat them more as an expensive wallhanger as I would prefer 1060-1075TH monosteel for cutting. Gotta admit it looks great and if I got the money I might consider getting one.... The word 'wootz' and 'damascus' has been misused and lot's of ebay seller use it to describe even folded steel. I personally would refer those wootz as "crucible" steel. Another thing I am pretty peeved about is the notion that 'the "ancient knowledge of wootz" is lost to time and we are just beginning to learn its ancient magical properties'. Oh yes we have a pretty good idea on how crucible steel are made. Although the properties of wootz steel varies a great deal since the Indian and Near-East smith are known to experimenting with different combination of stuff to find that "perfect mix". Yeah I would agree to a certain degree that we may need to rediscover that "perfect mix", it's gonna be hard to keep track of all possible experimentation I guess I should stop before I get flamed....
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 13:48:07 GMT
sicheah i am inclined to agree with you. if i were to pay that much for maybe a bugei that is making claim to a modern standardized steel, ok. but to pay that much for a lost art steel of legend, that has been amazingly rediscovered, i would want a metallurgical report, and have a buddy of mine that QA's steel at the mill, do his own testing first.
as you stated, tho this may or may not be real wootz steel, my own skepticism still exists due to so many fuxxers trying to blow smoke up our arses for so many years.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2010 23:38:41 GMT
Not to mention that particular Hanwei piece is not recommended for cutting practice as it predates the Rodell cutting Jian by a few months. Therefore even if it is made from the crucible steel of legend that particular blade may not be properly tempered to be a usable piece.
Sam could we get more info of Jeff Pringle his research and methods? If he has recreated Wootz I would love to see something properly forged and tempered made from it.
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Post by randomnobody on May 17, 2010 23:49:31 GMT
I'm not going to join either the skepticism or the praise but I thought I'd throw out some wootz blades for grins. I like these: www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=4023www.oriental-arms.co.il/photos.php?id=4062Of course, I'm just assuming the guys at Oriental Arms know the difference between wootz. Anyway, hurry up and make something out of this stuff and show us. Wootz or Pootz I don't care, it'll be pretty.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 4:35:54 GMT
Random it's not mine hehe though I wish it was hehe. Maybe I can convince Jeff next time to part with some, or i'll just have to make it myself.
I'll say, there is a whole world of bladesmithing outside of the little sbg world. There are bladesmiths out there who have long been doing things you didn't even know existed. People like Ric Furrer, Jeff Pringle I know in person, others I know of like Greg Obach, have been studying and making real wootz. The guys like Al Pendray, Dr Ann Feurbach and others have paved the way. I know Jeff Pringle personally, he's no bullsempriniter, most good bladesmiths aren't. I might be tricky and a semprini sometimes here but most here who know me know I am not a bullsempriniter either, so trust me when I say it's the real deal.
Tre, I love how you default to consulting your metallurgy mystery friend, has he some examples of old genuine wootz swords or ingot samples to compare any modern samples you would send him? I doubt it but if he does the samples he has analyzed would be very valuable indeed, but without he could analyze them til the cows come home and just have a bunch of spec sheets.
I love how everyone thinks it's a lost art, people tell me that at blacksmith demos all the time hehe and i'm doing it right in front of them. I'll say it again, there is a whole world outside of internet swordforums, while the bullsempriniters like watson get alot of press cause they are trash (like the trash in the national enquirer) there are others who quietly toil away in they're shops making the real deal based on extensive personal research and trial and error. The evidence is to be found on many bladesmithing forums with many pictures of split and cracked ingots, cracked blades and many other mysteries the great crucible holds hehe.
Ps, the vanadium thing is BUNK, thanks to an ill informed article in scientific american. Most wootz that has been analyzed shows it to be mainly carbon and iron. the article by Verhoeven tells
"Adding vanadium in such tiny amounts as 0.003 percent to high-purity iron-carbon alloys yielded good banding. Molybdenum also produces the desired effect, and, to a lesser extent, so do chromium, niobium and manganese."
But does not say that none are needed or a strict part of the recipe. and it can be done without.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 4:48:43 GMT
Heck, you can even take a class to make it!! forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=15534&pid=144530&st=0entry144530PPs, my comment on the forgetting everything you read on the sbg and other forums was mostly directed to the constant flood of idiots who don't know any real info propagating the same old myths of secret ores such and the usual degradation of most discussions to techno wootz.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 4:53:09 GMT
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Post by Dan Davis on May 18, 2010 12:29:58 GMT
Hey guys, Sam is absolutely correct. "The LOST art of making wootz steel" is nothing more than marketing hype: In other words, total bullsemprini.
As Pendray and Verhoeven said: The principle problem with wootz was that no one was willing to cut up their precious "magical Steel" blades to find out what it really was (until they actually did just that).
Once we knew exactly what goes into wootz it was "wizard cum spif" simple to reproduce it. The BIG mystery of wootz was just that: "What the hell IS wootz?". For those of you complaining about "crucible steel", wootz IS crucible steel, meaning it is made in a crucible just like all other steels. Even a Japanese Tatara is nothing more than a huge crucible.
I have been making this stuff since the late 1980's. I have a blade sitting on my desk right now made from the stuff. Why doesn't everyone have a wootz blade? because they are not willing to pay for the labor involved. What is the MAJOR difference in the wootz process from modern steel making? YOU DON'T STIR THE POT!
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Post by Matthew Stagmer on May 18, 2010 13:09:19 GMT
Quote from Jeff Pringle on another forum:
Verhoeven published an article with a synopsis of historic wootz analyses, giving these ranges: C 1.0-1.87% Mn 0.005-0.014% Si 0.005-0.11% S 0.007-0.038% P 0.026-0.206% Cu 0.03-0.18% Cr <0.01% Ni 0.008-0.07%
Here is the testings on the patty that Sam posted that was made at our Hammer-In last march. You can see that the chrome is a little high but well within the ranges. Every single woots smelt you do no matter how hard you try will come out just a tade different. SO many factors go into the outcome.
C 1.54 1.01 0.69 Mn 0.03 0.03 0.03 P 0.172 0.028 0.137 S 0.069 0.028 0.040 Si 0.03 0.2 0.07 Cr 0.77 0.67 0.22 Ni 0.02 0.02 0.03 Cu 0.03 0.01 0.02 V 0.05 0.05 0.02
So are we making wootz? Yes we are. Each run seems to fall within the exceptable ranges. This is a debate for the ages.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 14:36:46 GMT
I've been following the process of making steel on the DFogg forums with much interest. Sam, I see you're there, as are the BKS boys. Great job! I love it!
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 14:41:38 GMT
I'd add you see that variation in the antiques as well. From the high contrast wootz you see in many Persian weapons to the lower contrast crystaline wootz you see in many Indian weapons. still all wootz.
I recommend the Leo Figiel book On Damascus Steel for anyone wishing to view a nice array of blades and a good overview on the subject
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 15:01:28 GMT
Here is a pic of a dark ladder pattern wootz from a persian Pesh kabz Here is a pic of higher contrast wootz from a very old Indian khanda blade and last a lower contrast wootz from an Indian dagger I've seen some modern blades with colors and patterns very close to first two pieces.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 15:19:04 GMT
OK Sam, it sounds like homework is don, and Dan concurs, being the specs you provided showing both, old and new. I am glad you guys debunk the myth of the hype of salesmen. so here is the deal, from what I read in your specs you posted, it seems like a modern mixture as well, being that this stuff has already been around a while. as for crucibles, a mill furnace is a giant freaking crucible if you will. so i can see NOw why you said forgot what we thought we knew. My hat is off to you dude.
as for mystical super steel, there probably never was nor ever will be, but legends do arise, and for good purpose in days of old... freak out the enemy. kind of like the legend of the army of immortals in the movie 300. it just makes propaganda sense. if the enemy is afraid, you stand a better chance.
I am going to have to go back to something we were all discussing in another thread, and say that metal is good, hardness is good, even H/T is good, but it all comes down to the smith. without a good forging and h/t process by the smith, a sword is just a piece of sharp metal, and with the skills of a good smith a piece of sharp metal becomes a sword.
I reckon i still favor 1095 steel, but i do like the 2 blades i have made from 5160. all in all the smiths did a good job.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 18, 2010 22:32:13 GMT
I have two thoughts on this right now:
1: If I were a smith, what would my deciding factors for using wootz over 1060, 1095, 5160, etc be? in other words what are the desireable properties of wootz (other than the really cool patterns it makes)?
2: now that we know the stuff is real and well researched how do we avoid the huxters, scam artists, charletans, and the inept who market the magic of the steel and find the guys who really know how to work it? after all you could give me a lump of the stuff and I couldn't make a good sword out of it because I don't know how. who DOES know how and how do we find out who they are? obviously you have mentioned a few names and I'm sure that becoming more active in the uber-serious blade smith forums would really help but what about that Hanwei wootz or the next production company to come along? can this stuff really be done that way with decent results?
so why wootz if it isn't magical (and we all know it isn't)?
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on May 18, 2010 22:46:12 GMT
Wow.... this is just well, AWESOME. (Yes, I'm back...) I was going to post a thread in the off topic section first as a kind of 'hey guys! The class idiot stumbled his way back over!' type of thing, lol, but this thread is just too good to pass up posting on. Seriously, kudos to all of you who posted info for breaking me out of the intellectual shell formed of hype just one little bit more... The last three pages have been an astonishingly good read. +1 to Sam for startin' this here mess! -Slayer
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 22:50:03 GMT
I have two thoughts on this right now: 1: If I were a smith, what would my deciding factors for using wootz over 1060, 1095, 5160, etc be? in other words what are the desireable properties of wootz (other than the really cool patterns it makes)? 2: now that we know the stuff is real and well researched how do we avoid the huxters, scam artists, charletans, and the inept who market the magic of the steel and find the guys who really know how to work it? after all you could give me a lump of the stuff and I couldn't make a good sword out of it because I don't know how. who DOES know how and how do we find out who they are? obviously you have mentioned a few names and I'm sure that becoming more active in the uber-serious blade smith forums would really help but what about that Hanwei wootz or the next production company to come along? can this stuff really be done that way with decent results? so why wootz if it isn't magical (and we all know it isn't)? wait just a second Tom... if someone made a katana out of this stuff... wouldnt a swordsman now be able to cleave mt everest into the depths of the earth's foundation, or at least give chuck norris some serious shxt? think about what you are saying before you state it isnt magical... i mean even faery dust and santy cluse and all that stuff is real common dude... dont give up hope... oh iforgot that darned bunny with the eggs... and merlin... and...
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Dom T.
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Post by Dom T. on May 18, 2010 22:57:37 GMT
Welcome back, Slayer.
How about we get a bar of it, stick it in the ground, call it Excalibur, and sell it for $100,000? Call now and you'll get an EXTRA BONUS: Dirt included!
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on May 18, 2010 23:21:04 GMT
Thanks, Dom. AND you're a genius! I bet we could get some big names in on that.... I mean, Bill Gates HAS to want an Excalibur! 100k might be a bit light, considering... how bout 100 mil? ;D lol. -Slayer
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 18, 2010 23:26:02 GMT
Welcome back, Slayer. How about we get a bar of it, stick it in the ground, call it Excalibur, and sell it for $100,000? Call now and you'll get an EXTRA BONUS: Dirt included! but if you do that then only the true king of the Bretons could ship it out. that could be awkward.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2010 23:34:44 GMT
Too bad the only "Airt" (celtic of arthur) I know is a dog I owned years ago. I don't think four legs, furry, and with a bad habit of using rugs for latrines qualifies as the true king of the Bretons.
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