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Post by Dan Davis on May 18, 2010 23:52:41 GMT
I dunno, sounds about right to me.
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Post by kidcasanova on May 19, 2010 12:18:54 GMT
I dunno, sounds about right to me. OWNED. I'm sorry, but that was an excellent rip on the Brits and I had to laugh... Anyhow, this has been an excellent thread to read through and if I weren't so damn tired I'd have more input. As it is I wanted to thank Sam, Dan and Matt for the info (and whoever else contributed, like I said, I'm dead tired).
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Post by Matthew Stagmer on May 19, 2010 16:19:22 GMT
I had a whole crucible section of our website up with tons of info before the crash. Now its just a few pictures. Maybe I will spend some time restoring that so you can all have a good read. I am lucky enough to be linked with some guys that have speant a ton of time and money researching info and have gladly shared a ton of it with me.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2010 6:16:59 GMT
so if the crucible steels being made today are of the same quality of traditional damascus/wootz what are the benefits of it over monosteel? Or is it as always an aesthetic quality rather than a practical quality?
Also what is the difference between the different crucible steels (thermite steel etc) and what are the benefits of it that make it any better than a simple monosteel?
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2010 2:45:47 GMT
"so why this steel over that blah blah blah!" who cares? It's the same bullsemprini myth and mysticism like for katana. It can't cut through gun barrells! It's the smith's personal choice to punish themselves working trial and error with homemade steel ROFL. There's no reason to choose it over another, it's already known to be good for swords so who cares? If you have to ask why, in this case then you just don't get it. a more serious answer to your questions though Tom, I have heard that an english smith Owen Bush made a kitchen knife out of wootz, he says it cuts well and holds a very good edge. as to why to choose it, it's like tamahagane, it's traditional and beautiful. as to telling the difference between the hoaxes and the real deal, if you ask the maker they will more than likely happily tell you how they make it, read up so if they feed you a fat steaming line of you know what then you can tell the difference. recognition doesn't come overnight! you have to study hard and ask many questions and get uber serious about it. Best way is to follow along on a forum like www.forums.dfoggknives.comNone of these Chinese companies will ever come clean about anything they do, so don't bother following them trying to get info. Go to the source, single well studied smiths working in they're shops.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 21, 2010 3:56:05 GMT
Well Sam, that's pretty much what I expected you'd say on the matter but I had to ask anyway.
I understand the desire to work with the traditional cool stuff even if it maybe isn't really better but I thought what with all the scientific talk of carbon nano tubes and stuff that maybe there were a few properties Wootz has that any other steel maybe doesn't. I know, I'm probably just buying into bullsemprini with that line of thought but I wanted to give it a chance.
thanks for the honest answers man.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2010 4:10:12 GMT
I'll put 100% martensitic 1095 against nanotubes any day of the week message one of the guys named in this thread, I have NEVER seen a wootz blade cut anything.
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Post by randomnobody on May 21, 2010 4:29:33 GMT
So Sam, think you'll be making any of your own anytime soon? If I had the income I'd be all over those other guys, but for now I'll just live vicariously through others.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2010 12:48:52 GMT
It's on the ever growing list!!
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Post by Dan Davis on May 21, 2010 13:49:32 GMT
Folks, the major diff between crucible steels, modern steels and wootz is that the modern and crucible stuff are homogeneous, where wootz (and tamehagane) are not. Because wootz is built up in the crucible in layers and is not mixed or stirred during smelting it settles in layers. The layering effect in wootz causes formation of regions containing high levels of ferric carbide sandwiched between layers of almost pure iron. If the material remains in the crucible too long it will become homogeneous, and if it does not remain in the crucible long enough it will split, fracture and fall apart. Why are carbides important? well, carbide tools are what we use to cut hardened steel on a lathe. They are really hard, really strong and VERY brittle. Why are the layers of mild steel/pure iron important? They are not really hard but strong and tough as all get out. How is this useful? That is where the smith comes in. By hammering a billet of wootz steel the smith does two things. He breaks apart the layers of carbide into tiny little chunks of micro-carbide "cutting tools" inside the matrix, and he compresses the matrix so that the layers of soft material and hard become 1-2 molecules thick. The smith will also work the steel at low temperatures, staying below austenitizing heat. (once the carbides undergo phase transformation they are nothing more than ferrite and pearlite). In order to retain the carbides which make wootz what it is, the material must never remain above A 0 for a significant amount of time. The smith is as important as the material in any blade. So what you get is a steel matrix consisting of billions of tiny little lathe tools fixed inside an iron matrix.
- Does it cut better?
Back in the day it certainly did; because smiths had no real idea of what was going on in the steel and did everything by guess and experience. Nowadays, not so much. Controlled heat treat being what it is, a competent smith can make a modern steel blade as good or better that a traditional wootz blade.
- Is it better than alloy laminates?
Well, that really depends upon the laminate materials and how well you forge and heat treat the laminates, doesn't it? Also depends on who made the wootz and how. But it really depends on the smith making the blades.
- Is there some other way to make it?
Welllllll, you could learn how to make carbide cutting tools; and then learn how to screw up the process of making carbide cutting tools (there are papers published on how NOT to do this, so just turn them around).
If you experimented long enough you might just learn how to make some sort of "Technological Wootz-like Product"
- Why do it?
Hey, it is fun. You learn stuff just by doing the process (even if you screw it up). Some collectors pay more for that kind of stuff.
How about the simple joy of creating something?
I'm done Sam, your soapbox.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 21, 2010 15:49:53 GMT
the carbide in soft steel matrix is something I find very interesting. of course the smith is the key componant how could it be otherwise?
my big concern would be to make sure I got a piece made by someone who would treat it right and not just try to make it look right and screw the carbides and actualy structure of the steel which is what I expect we will get from production forges at some point or another.
so basically it sounds to me like it is just another "cool" steel that can be just as good as anything else if done right but if not done right can be screwed up pretty easily so if you want the "cool" you gotta pay for the high-end work.
good news still but I think I'll be avoiding the inevitable, eventual, release of the budget wootz blade.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2010 16:04:04 GMT
Aww man so im not gonna be able to cut through boulders with it?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 21, 2010 16:14:23 GMT
maybe a boulder of tatami, or styrofoam painted grey. . . but no, not really.
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Post by shadowhowler on May 21, 2010 16:31:08 GMT
Dan's last post made a lot of sense to me... as does this conversation in general. There are lots of storys about swords and steels...some likely fact, some fiction... but I bet most are somewhere in between. As with most things in life.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2010 17:05:00 GMT
sam, the stuff you have posted here about this, even the tech info is superb. +1 to you for it. you not only busted the myth of legend regarding all of the techno hype of wootz, you took time to deal with my skepticism, in a proper, nonjudgmental manner.
adn you do realize the part about cleaving a mountain was a joke right. it was a play on the legend. i guess, if we were to have some of the metals and forging techniques we have today back in medieval times we would have started a legend as well.
my fav is till 1095 steel forged properly. i am not incredibly fond of folded, etc, because of the problems should a smith not be on their game.
keep up the good work.
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Post by Dan Davis on May 21, 2010 21:38:17 GMT
Fellas, I forgot to add that you need to let the crucible cool slowly in order to make this work out best. My bad.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2010 23:48:53 GMT
So then the best blade available today for any amount of money would be an Howard Clark L6 blade
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Post by genocideseth on May 21, 2010 23:58:24 GMT
So then the best blade available today for any amount of money would be an Howard Clark L6 blade Where did you get that from?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2010 0:33:24 GMT
Blade performance or supersteel rumors aside, I was at the Wallace Collection in London a couple of weeks ago and examined a 17th century shamshir with an authentic wootz blade, and I have to say it was one of the most beautiful pieces of steel I've ever seen.
The pattern shifted in and out of focus when you moved, like each sliver of the pattern was its own ghostly hamon. It's spooky.
I think a modern sword made of real wootz done correctly would be gorgeous, if nothing else. It's really remarkable to see. Whether that attribute alone is enough to warrant all the effort and energy in attempting to make it is up for debate.
*I've had trouble linking to images from the museum, but if you go to the Wallace Collection online that sword is number "OA1404" if you want to see a snapshot.*
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 23, 2010 3:09:17 GMT
Lunaman, that sword sounds amazingly beautiful, I'd love to se it in person, I'm sure pictures don't do it justice.
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