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Post by shadowhowler on May 5, 2010 20:36:52 GMT
"SBG does not have or need a MORAL OBLIGATION to bargain hunt." Wait....I kind of thought that that was the entire point? Actually, the point was to help people find functional swords under 300 dollars as opposed to SLO crap that many disreputable sellers try to pawn off as real. This seller was selling a real sword, at a very decent price that only one vendor on the whole Internet beat, and its outside the sub 300 price scope anyway. You are, in my view, just seeking to justify rude and inappropriate behavior under the guise of 'helping out the less knowledgeable'. I've noticed this is not the first time you, in particular, think rude and offensive actions are justified by such a claim, and I find it unsettling.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 20:39:19 GMT
I want to say one last thing here.Morals arent a set of rules one person devised and laid forth for all to follow that one persons idea of what a moral should be.Confusing,LOL?
One persons moral responsibility is determined by the morals they hold themselves to.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 20:40:25 GMT
in response to: ""SBG does not have or need a MORAL OBLIGATION to bargain hunt."
Wait....I kind of thought that that was the entire point?" by Mrfatbucket.
not to the extent that it damages another person. I can't speak for Paul / Site Admin and I don't set site policy, but this sort of attitude that anything is ok as long as it serves the bottom line is a dangerous attitude in my opinion.
if you feel you have a moral obligation to protect people from bad prices then go ahead and PM people who are posting things that you feel are out of line and then wait for them to change their listing. THEN if they do not, THEN inform the site's classified moderator that you feel there is something fishy going on. you do not set SBG policy any more than I do but I can quote one policy that I think applies: "this is the Friendliest Sword Forum on the net" if there is one hallowed rule to SBG politeness is IT, not bargain hunting and castigating those who cannot or choose not to offer the lowest price on the net.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 20:44:35 GMT
For those claiming that SBG is here to help out the "community" by finding the best deals, I thought SBG was cool because the "community" is a place for BOTH buyers and sellers to hang out and interact, individual or not. That was one of the things that attracted me here in the first place, and if we're moving from that solidarity, it's frankly scary and depressing.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 20:47:41 GMT
I totally agree Tom with all of that.I dont see how it damaged him.I mean hes asking a more than fair price for the sword regardless of Marcs price.And I dont think anyone here thinks mtuttle was trying to rip anyone off.But I do agree the pm and wait method would have been better.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 20:48:23 GMT
Agreed with George300. Sorry but I will always help people to find anything cheaper and would be very thankful if someone else did the same. The fact is that not everyone knows a lot about swords or how much they should pay for them. So they should be left to fend for them self because of that? "To bad you paid to much for that sword there buddy, you should have known better." It may have only been $20 or so cheaper but it was also new from the vendor. I have no idea who mtuttle is or what he has done with this sword in the past. We have to take it on face value that he is telling the truth. "SBG does not have or need a MORAL OBLIGATION to bargain hunt." Wait....I kind of thought that that was the entire point? Hold on a second, isn't that what everyone who buys on the internet does, take things on face value to an extent? And now my actions are being questioned because who knows what I've done? I've performed some kata with my blade and cleaned it once a week. No trying to cut cars in two, no tameshigiri with babies, no chopping cow bones... I posted pictures of the exact sword and adjusted my price way below anything available for a great blade due to the fact that my thread was heckled. Unbelievable. Matt
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Post by YlliwCir on May 5, 2010 20:48:30 GMT
My first reaction was to say "sure it's okay to give a heads up to a cheaper price". However I think part of the problem is people (especially on the internet) often go with their first reaction. Leads to rude behavior I believe. Just because it may be true doesn't make it any less rude. Some get entrenched in defending their behavior when a bit of introspection may lead to better decorum. Like Tom has suggested I think "the friendliest forum" policy has to trump all. Upon reflection I think a polite pm would be a better course. In this instance anyhow.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 20:58:00 GMT
www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1955www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65199/index.cgi?board=classifieds&action=display&thread=7564 Then, check out policies and outlets for discussion on Ebay. How many, across the boards and auction sites play by the rules to the fullest extent? For a site such as this that is pretty well self policed, it seems strange to me that some pretty simple rules of play don't get much air time and it is refreshing to see it brought up in opposing community spirits, even when the truths are pretty well laid out on at least those three sword venues and Ebay as one more site that has a vast feedback and forum base to discuss these issues.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 21:01:33 GMT
For those claiming that SBG is here to help out the "community" by finding the best deals, I thought SBG was cool because the "community" is a place for BOTH buyers and sellers to hang out and interact, individual or not. That was one of the things that attracted me here in the first place, and if we're moving from that solidarity, it's frankly scary and depressing. A WONDERFUL point. I agree 100% with this and a big +1 for Opferous. I think this is important. to mr. mtuttle, on behalf of the forum I would like to extend my appologies to you sir and please bear with us while we attempt to settle this stange and volitile issue. this is not the normal character of these forums and I hope you will be patient with us. we will get this sorted out and I am confident it will end us in a position of class and manners.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 21:04:55 GMT
I fully agree with Tom on the concept that we are here to be friendly not the moral bargain hunter police.
What it comes down to to my thoughts is that Wiwingti can miss one sale that could have gone to mtuttle who only was selling that one sword. Wiwingti has a wholesale buying power and sells dirt cheap, while mtuttle was just trying to give a good deal and get a little something back so he could buy another sword. Like so many people have done here.
Announcing on his classified thread there was a new sword for less might have ruined a sale that still would have been a decent deal, maybe not the best, but fair. All over a very small price difference. That of course then unraveled all this drama and discussion which makes things even worse for everyone in my opinion. For Wiwingti, mtuttle, animelover, and for all of us who have to hear this debate of was it right wrong etc..
To me this has gone way out of proportion, gone on way to far, and is getting ridiculous.
Was it all worth it for a $20 difference in price? To debate if we should interrupt a classified ad? Will it be worth it if we get the classifieds heavily regulated, or worse shut down?
**Humms and thinks happy pixie with a sword thoughts and goes to stoke the fire in the stove.**
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Post by shadowhowler on May 5, 2010 21:11:54 GMT
Will it be worth it if we get the classifieds heavily regulated, or worse shut down? I tell ya... I have gone on record many times against censorship and for free speech here on these forums, and almost got myself in big trouble over it once. I have always preferred SBG to the other Forums I am a member of, because of the relaxed atmosphere and more lax 'oversight'. However... If people can not see that this sort of behavior is extremely rude, and against the main mission of these forums... To be 'The Friendliest Sword Forum on the Internet'... then in this one instance I would support stronger regulation. I am outright baffled that we have members here that think this sort of behavior is ok... it just blows my mind.
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Post by sicheah on May 5, 2010 21:23:46 GMT
Also keep in mind that Hanwei did reduce the price of most of their product line by around $100 or more for more expensive product months ago. Even KoA was selling a scratch and dent Hanwei Tinker EMSHS for $250 for a few weeks (they are now only $160ish at Wiwi).
Come and think about it, it is pretty rude. If I are trying to sell something, if someone announces in the open that I am selling it at price higher than the retail. I would be pretty pissed and my reputation may be at stake here too.
If I were to approach this problem, I would send the seller a PM notifying him/her that if he/she would want to increase the chance of selling it, they should lower the price since a new one cost XXX at this retailer.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 21:26:36 GMT
who here recalls the drama that happened with a seller called Haz-something-or-other?
well to tell the story the seller claimed that there were members of this forum trying to bully him into giving out free swords for "reviews" or unfair discounts. it didn't take long for Paul to show up and state that we are the friendliest forum and that any member trying to bully a vendor into giving free swords or trying to force discounts that would not have been made otherwise will be drop-kick banned instantly and forever from the site no questions asked no appologies accepted.
I don't see this as too awefully different. I don't think anyone should get banned for it, especially since the offending member has appologised, BUT I think it applies.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 21:31:30 GMT
tries to think happier pixie thoughts
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 21:53:58 GMT
Ok, I agree (after a few glasses of wine) that this has run it's course. Hopefully some members and the admins will take something from this thread and sbg will be better for it.
I'd like my blade to sell, if it doesn't, well that's too bad.
Good night all!
Matt
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 22:00:24 GMT
Much happier pixie thoughts for all!
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 22:03:10 GMT
ineffableone, those are some really cool arts where are you finding them?
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 22:08:40 GMT
no! we do NOT have a MORAL obligation to point out that something sells for less in someone's classified thread. if the seller had been asking MSRP or more than that then the price would have been unreasonable and worht a post of "hey this is a USED sword, right? how come you want so much?" but in this case it was not a bad price for a sword that has only been used for forms. and through normal classifieds price drops would have gone below wiwingti price soon anyway. a PM would have been the way to handle this. and even in the extreme case I mentioned of an asking price at MSRP a PM would still have been better than a public decrying. no matter how the "sorry pal" was meant is sure seemed to me as dismissive. the big issue here is this: SBG does not have or need a MORAL OBLIGATION to bargain hunt. down that road lies madness. not only is there the paranoid fantasy of how that can spin out of control socially there is also the idea that price is not the only consideration. and I KNOW (better than most) just how much good stuff comes with a Wiwingti deal but that isn't the point. crying out that we have MORAL OBLIGATION to shoot this classified add down because a seller can offer the same thing at a SLIGHTLY lower price is just wrong people. we all talk about the good deals and wehre to get them often enough that anyone who buys a katana from the classifieds without checking wiwingti and KOA's prices (at a minimum) is beyond our help. trashing a guy's classified add in the thread is NOT KOSHER! please people don't give me the "good of the community" arguement, I do not recognise that as a valid angle. perhaps moral obligation is too strong a word, but I would and would appreciate if others do mention that there a new sword that goes for less. A PM would have been a more tactful way to go about it, but then there is the possibility that the seller would simply disregard it (again, I don't know the seller in this case and am not saying this is the case, just that it could be). We are transparent here and as so I do not believe comments on any kind (as long as they are appropriate) should be stigmatized... if I go a store and I semprini about how overpriced something is (again, not this case), I'm pretty sure most store associates would do pretty much nothing, even if I were to stand next to the door and spread flyers with the address of another store that sold that same product for less...
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Post by septofclansinclair on May 5, 2010 22:55:48 GMT
That first pixie looks more... murderous, really, than happy. At least that's how she seems to me. Anyways, I haven't been around much lately, and I've started to loath every interaction online that remotely seems like a debate... BUT, y'all are my "peeps" (as the kids say) and SBG has been a friendlier and more welcoming home to me and many others than any other online community I've found, and I like investing in it. Since backing off as a moderator and going to handling the reviews and review team, I've enjoyed it even more since I spend less time trying to persuade people to act like grown ups and being verbally abused for it. First off, good on monsieur fatbucket for making this a separate thread. That needed to happen a few posts before it did, and we should all be relieved that it happened (imagine doing this in the classifieds section instead? Yuck.) It boils down to 3 things from what I can see here: 1. Was it appropriate for the poster to do what he did in the way that he did it? ("sorry pal") 2. Is it ever appropriate to "hijack" a classifieds thread - no matter how good your intentions - for the purpose of showing a lower price? 3. How does this fit into the overarching purpose of SBG (whatever that is)? Here's some of my thoughts: 1. No. No matter the intent, it was rude the way it came across, and obviously many people see it that way. 2. Tough call. Savings of $55 in this case seems like a pretty small thing to make a big deal over. If he was trying to sell it for $800 I could see an "outcry" being more appropriate. When it's so close to what the lowest price is out there (and I've seen that sword for $500 or more PLENTY of times), a PM to the seller is more appropriate. 3. I like to think that we are the friendliest, sure, that we show solidarity to each other and the market, that we try and educate, support and inform one another. Is that just about the "lowest price" or "best deal" no matter what? I'm not sure. I'd say yes, but at what expense? If we are like that all the time, then soon there will be no more "mom and pop" stores, just wal marts (or their sword selling equivalents) everywhere. How does that help the market? Diversity strengthens us, and I'll admit that if I have a choice between saving 20 bucks or supporting, for example, Arms of Valour - a store that has enriched the community here almost more than any other - I know where I'd spend my money.
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Post by sparky on May 5, 2010 23:01:26 GMT
Wow, goto bed and then work and look what happens...... Betrayed gets moved way down in the threads. ;D I hope that no new rules come from this because I love SBG. It also looks like an apology was made, 2 or 3 times, so I think any lessons have been learned. So deep breaths and a group hug all the way around, there don't we all feel better now! ;D Okay, okay I'm a dork.
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