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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 17:28:46 GMT
Again, no worries. I'm just not used to so much discussion on a sales thread, usually stick to SFI but have recently sold a couple things on SBG. I'd like to find a good home for this one so it can get a little use. But, if it doesn't happen that's life.
I also had no idea that Wiwingti had such low prices, and wouldn't have if not for the thread from this subject. They must be like $25 over cost on some of those items, that's crazy! Which is why, when I saw what the ebayers were selling for, I thought my price was good. Oh well.
Matt
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 17:38:50 GMT
In the UK we also suffer from the lack of a decent vendor that undercuts the MRRP. Every time I convert the vendors here from pounds to dollars then compare the prices to wiwingti I die a little inside.
I don't think the tone was rude. That's completely open to interpretation. Its very hard to judge the tone of text. Especially on an internet forum that comprises of people from many backgrounds. Language is fluid and everyone's vernacular is different. It's not like he said " Hey d***s***. Your f***ing price is ******q**** *******. Go to wiwingti instead. ***s****." That would have been rude. When did we all become so easily offended?
I don't think he made the decision to post that other than to help others that may be interested or to inform the seller that his pricing was off. He only had others interests at heart. I know I wouldn't want to see an unknowing member pay more than they should.
No its not the sellers responsibility but if they want a quick sale(or to sell at all) then surely its in their best interest to undercut someone selling new at a lower price. The adds are free to post and its an open forum. It not like marc from wiwingti is jumping in on threads himself.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 17:41:11 GMT
Oh no man your price is great,its an awesome sword.Marc is just, well,the man.Im sure you will sell it, and I hope quickly.Again I truly meant to cause no problems,my apologies. People here do try look out for each other which is why I like it here.And now you are aware of Wiwingti so at least some good has come from it.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 17:51:36 GMT
John: Everyone should be aware of wiwingti. I always love telling people that they can get the sword they mentioned for $300 cheaper (or whatever) at wiwingti. Especially if they have never seen his site.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 17:57:46 GMT
And it should be mentioned that Marc really looks out for his customers. You get low prices AND customer support from Wiwingti. Wait...when did this thread turn into a commercial? Matt, I'm glad there are no hard feelings. Hopefully you will spend more time here with our little community.
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Post by shadowhowler on May 5, 2010 18:03:15 GMT
I really strongly feel there is no way to interpret the 'Sorry pal' as anything but rude... As mentioned many times, it is not a sellers responsibility to sell their item cheaper then everyone else... its a buyers responsability to find an item at whatever price he/she is willing to pay. The item in question here was being sold for less then dozens of vendors... only ONE was selling it for less, I'd say that the seller listed it for a VERY fair price. I would not have even bothered with the PM in this case myself... as the price was very market fair, no one would be getting 'ripped off' if they bought the sword... they could get a slightly better deal from ONE vendor on the whole internet. That is NOT ripping someone off. Not in the least. If someone comes in and trys selling some 150 dollar Windlass for 300 dollars, I'll send them a PM and say 'Eh-hem... you might onsider altering your price, what your asking for that sword is unrealistic. I do reviews to offer my impressions of swords... I answer questions when asked and offer my opinions when I think they might help. I DO NOT jump someones sale thread and post a rude comment along with a link to the item being sold a VERY slightly better price from another vendor... thats just being a semprini, period.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 18:19:06 GMT
I'm not going to say there wasn't a better way to phrase the post, but if I were to look for a deal in the classified section and then found out I could buy it for less from a vendor (of whom everyone thinks highly), I'd be pretty pissed off. So, in other words, not too kind, but necessary.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 18:23:07 GMT
Well, I'd like to say thanks to Aaron and Shadowhowler for speaking up on this issue. Maybe the intent was not to stomp on my sale, but still not the proper form for a critique in my opinion. I'm still going to try to sell that blade, but have quite a bit of doubt that anyone would purchase from a that thread due to the link and chatter. If you don't mind that sort of activity on your sales, maybe you should pm the poster from my thread and ask them to review your sale to make sure it's up to snuff. Matt
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Post by Cottontail Customs on May 5, 2010 18:28:20 GMT
although I feel that there is nothing wrong with stating our opinions about this incident here I can't help but worry that the attention will bring about new, and for the most part, unnecessary rules and restrictions. paranoid? perhaps, but if someone is reading this who has the authority to change things.........please, please, please don't!!! there are already way too many restrictions on forums these days. at least Mr. bucket had the good sense to move it out of the classifieds.
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Post by shadowhowler on May 5, 2010 18:28:46 GMT
I'm not going to say there wasn't a better way to phrase the post, but if I were to look for a deal in the classified section and then found out I could buy it for less from a vendor (of whom everyone thinks highly), I'd be pretty pissed off. So, in other words, not too kind, but necessary. WTF?!?! I'm really disappointed in the few of you who think this thing is ok... if you by something and then find it for less of a price later, thats on YOU for not doing your homework. In this case... of the many many vendors all over the Internet selling the sword in question... only ONE of them had this sword for a better price then the guy was asking... and that after shipping was like only 20 bucks cheaper. 20 Bucks on a sword that sells between 450 - 700 or so dollars. That is not by any stretch of the imagination a rip off! Gezzzz!!! You want to find the best price for something... LOOK! You want help, ASK. I do not like the idea that people think its OK for people to just start popping into anyones sale thread and say 'You know, Joe blow over here is selling this for 10 bucks cheaper. Buy it there.' Not to mention being dickish while they do it. C'mon people... what happened to concepts like 'personal responsibility' and 'manners' and 'tact' and such? Do you guys really think its ok to just drop into anyones sale thread and say this stuff, and rudely at that? At MOST a PM to inform the seller it could be found at ONE VENDOR for less... but to me in this case the price difference was so small that even that seems to be going out of ones way a bit. I'm a amazed and saddened to see this sort of crap. I really, REALLY don't want our classifieds to go all super strict like at SFI where you can not say a damn thing... but I WOULD prefer to see that over people busting in willy-nilly into peoples sales and being rude.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 18:29:51 GMT
ok I want to chime in on something here that is only a little to the side of the topic but which I think important.
I have read several statements that basically ask: we are all about finding the lowest prices and helping out the buyer here so isn't it our duty to post this out so people know?
NO! first of all I don't think that as a community we are all about finding the lowest prices. preventing a rip-off, sure but this is certainly not a rip-off. the danger I se in this logic is not that some one gets feelings hurt or someone pays a little more than they could have but rather the idea of running people into the ground in the name of supporting the community. that sort of logic turns very quickly into bullying and injustice. there are people who will abuse others and hide behind the protection of "but it was for the common good" this cannot be allowed. I'm not saying that was the case here, but rather that this crazy mindset starts with one well meaning guy but then branches into something else. this is how it starts. so please don't ever think that the ends justify the means down that path lies madness.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 18:37:38 GMT
Well said, we all have computers to investigate any pricing. While I thought I did my homework, I obviously didn't catch a lower price. And now I doubt I'll be able to sell a good blade on this forum due to the whole thing being tainted by a remark that could have been privately conveyed.
I dropped my price by $75 to make it a "better" deal and not take advantage, but I guarantee that if the sword sat for a day or two I would have done the same anyhow and not needed a link to an extremely low priced vendor on my sale.
Matt
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 18:42:04 GMT
exactly, and Matt Tuttle is not the only guy who does that. in fact nearly everybody who posts something in the classifieds will drop their price if it isn't selling.
hey Matt, do you have a brother or cousin or someone sharing the same last name in the Coast Guard? long shot, just asking
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 18:45:52 GMT
I think enough has been said on this particular topic, so I'll post my own story. On a local car forum there was a guy selling a 1 year old used car exhaust for $160 dollars. I asked him for pictures and he put up an ebay link to the picture of the item. Well of course I find the item for sale which happens to be $140 brand new free shipping and post up the link in his thread. Personally in that case I felt I was doing the community a favor by saying hey look this guy is trying to unload his used exhaust on us for more than he paid for it. But all I got was a nasty PM from the administrator and seller telling me not to be an semprini. Now I was more on the point of trying to prevent someone being ripped of in this case. You can't compare my story to this one though, because im talking aobut a used old rusty scratched up car exhaust that the seller knew how much he paid for it and that he was asking for more than it was new vs a beautiful katana that the seller had no idea that it could be had for cheaper (hell I had no idea either ). I think it would have been better in this case to PM him, but we've beat this like a dead horse now and unless the poster's in that thread remove or edit their posts its already been said sadly
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 18:46:36 GMT
Hey Tom,
Not that I know of, but it could be a possibility. My grandfather had 6 brothers and 7 sisters!
Matt
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 19:14:33 GMT
ok I want to chime in on something here that is only a little to the side of the topic but which I think important. I have read several statements that basically ask: we are all about finding the lowest prices and helping out the buyer here so isn't it our duty to post this out so people know? NO! first of all I don't think that as a community we are all about finding the lowest prices. preventing a rip-off, sure but this is certainly not a rip-off. the danger I se in this logic is not that some one gets feelings hurt or someone pays a little more than they could have but rather the idea of running people into the ground in the name of supporting the community. that sort of logic turns very quickly into bullying and injustice. there are people who will abuse others and hide behind the protection of "but it was for the common good" this cannot be allowed. I'm not saying that was the case here, but rather that this crazy mindset starts with one well meaning guy but then branches into something else. this is how it starts. so please don't ever think that the ends justify the means down that path lies madness. Interesting Tom. Not sure I agree with your entire logic chain though.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 19:30:48 GMT
I'm not going to say there wasn't a better way to phrase the post, but if I were to look for a deal in the classified section and then found out I could buy it for less from a vendor (of whom everyone thinks highly), I'd be pretty pissed off. So, in other words, not too kind, but necessary. WTF?!?! I'm really disappointed in the few of you who think this thing is ok... if you by something and then find it for less of a price later, thats on YOU for not doing your homework. In this case... of the many many vendors all over the Internet selling the sword in question... only ONE of them had this sword for a better price then the guy was asking... and that after shipping was like only 20 bucks cheaper. 20 Bucks on a sword that sells between 450 - 700 or so dollars. That is not by any stretch of the imagination a rip off! Gezzzz!!! You want to find the best price for something... LOOK! You want help, ASK. I do not like the idea that people think its OK for people to just start popping into anyones sale thread and say 'You know, Joe blow over here is selling this for 10 bucks cheaper. Buy it there.' Not to mention being dickish while they do it. C'mon people... what happened to concepts like 'personal responsibility' and 'manners' and 'tact' and such? Do you guys really think its ok to just drop into anyones sale thread and say this stuff, and rudely at that? At MOST a PM to inform the seller it could be found at ONE VENDOR for less... but to me in this case the price difference was so small that even that seems to be going out of ones way a bit. I'm a amazed and saddened to see this sort of crap. I really, REALLY don't want our classifieds to go all super strict like at SFI where you can not say a damn thing... but I WOULD prefer to see that over people busting in willy-nilly into peoples sales and being rude. I'd like to think of this forum as being helpful on two different degrees, people helping other with finding the best deals, etc. and with the classifieds (obviously I'm only considering economic stuff here). With that in mind, I would hope for people to actually provide others with the best deals (hence agreeing with the person who posted the link, for the most part). In addition, I would hope that people selling in the classified section would offer a price that's comprehensive and considers that people go there to buy cheap used stuff, not stuff that is cheaper than the price the sword was bought. Do I think the seller tried to rip me off? No, it was done with good intention, but still, I believe people who had seen the wiwingti price had the moral responsibility to notify potential buyers that there is a (well-known) vendor who sells new such products for less. On the other hand, the vendor, to ensure their product would sail, should have first checked all prices (why, because if I can buy something new cheaper than one offers me to buy a used one, then the choice is obvious and it may make some people believe they are trying to get people ripped off). So, with that being said, I don't see if a bold, magnified "wtf" is appropriate in this case (both in content and formatting), but each his own...
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 19:38:50 GMT
No, if they have any "moral obligation" it's to tell the seller that a retailer sells it for close or less to what the seller is asking.
As a regular person in the real world, I don't feel that I have a moral obligation to stand outside dojos in my area to let their students know that my school has a gret deal on similar training, do I? I feel more strongly that I have a moral obligation to act with some ettiquet.
But, that's a real world situation not one where the anonimity of the internet make people feel like they can say what they want whenever they want.
Matt
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on May 5, 2010 20:11:43 GMT
no! we do NOT have a MORAL obligation to point out that something sells for less in someone's classified thread. if the seller had been asking MSRP or more than that then the price would have been unreasonable and worht a post of "hey this is a USED sword, right? how come you want so much?" but in this case it was not a bad price for a sword that has only been used for forms. and through normal classifieds price drops would have gone below wiwingti price soon anyway.
a PM would have been the way to handle this. and even in the extreme case I mentioned of an asking price at MSRP a PM would still have been better than a public decrying. no matter how the "sorry pal" was meant is sure seemed to me as dismissive.
the big issue here is this: SBG does not have or need a MORAL OBLIGATION to bargain hunt. down that road lies madness. not only is there the paranoid fantasy of how that can spin out of control socially there is also the idea that price is not the only consideration. and I KNOW (better than most) just how much good stuff comes with a Wiwingti deal but that isn't the point. crying out that we have MORAL OBLIGATION to shoot this classified add down because a seller can offer the same thing at a SLIGHTLY lower price is just wrong people. we all talk about the good deals and wehre to get them often enough that anyone who buys a katana from the classifieds without checking wiwingti and KOA's prices (at a minimum) is beyond our help. trashing a guy's classified add in the thread is NOT KOSHER!
please people don't give me the "good of the community" arguement, I do not recognise that as a valid angle.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2010 20:22:40 GMT
Agreed with George300.
Sorry but I will always help people to find anything cheaper and would be very thankful if someone else did the same.
The fact is that not everyone knows a lot about swords or how much they should pay for them. So they should be left to fend for them self because of that? "To bad you paid to much for that sword there buddy, you should have known better."
It may have only been $20 or so cheaper but it was also new from the vendor. I have no idea who mtuttle is or what he has done with this sword in the past. We have to take it on face value that he is telling the truth.
"SBG does not have or need a MORAL OBLIGATION to bargain hunt."
Wait....I kind of thought that that was the entire point?
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