Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 14:51:08 GMT
Greetings dear sirs.
This is my first post so please do beer with me!Cheers!
Now on to the question.I just bought the so called "deluxe king leonidas sword" also known as "spartan fantasy battlescarred super testosterone semprini blade"or something like that.Kult of Athena (I think they're cool) labels this as battle ready and describes it as handforged high carbon steel.Now it did sound a bit fishy in the begining, plus it was dirt cheap, but I told my self that this could easily be the price and effort you pay for 2 machetes so it wouldn't be to unreal for this sword to cost so little since it's as unpolished and simple as a machete.Additionaly, this is after all the cult of athena, what could go wrong?I just bought a cast (iron?) blade for battle ready that's what!The bubbly surface and small cyrcles from the cast are a dead giveaway.If somebody has some information about making process,company, RC or any kind of testing.Any points about the blade whatsoever please please tell me about it.
The blade is also like 50% percent bigger and certainly not one-handed so it has nothing to do with the movie, but I don't really care about that.In fact I rather enjoyed the surprise of getting an orc falcion-cleaver looking thing rather than the 300 sword.But...WHAT GOOD IS IT IF IT'S CAST METAL!!!Please tell me I am wrong and this thing is really what I bought it for...I can't look at it with a straight eye anymore and sex with it has never been the same since I noticed...I...I am terribly sorry I souldn't have said that.Anyways,I am seriously interested for any info.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 16:59:54 GMT
Do you have a link to what sword you bought.I checked Athena and they only list two swords from the 300 movie and both say unsharpened carbon steel.Although you bought it from Athena does it say on the blade or invoice who made it. If you really want a quality 300 sword I would recommend you go over and look at the swords at Scorpion blades.His 300 sword is one serious piece of steel and definatly ready for anything you could put to it. traditionalarcherybows.com/handmade_greek_spartan_300_sword_p56.html |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 17:47:09 GMT
www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=BK1388&name=Battle+Worn+Fantasy+Spartan+SwordYeah I've seen the dudes work.Nice and simple, but that doesn't reflect on the price.His is in the 200+ zone and I don't work in that one.If it is a blade cut out of a billet, then ground,heat-treated and then edgework that's less than a sweat's work for any craftsman. it should be like 100$ max we're talking about here.I mean for 180 you can get a falcata from windlass or depeeka,they're both hand forged and really good at what they do.Or for the 200+ he's asking get a cheness oniyuri,now that's a blade I'd exeed my 100$ budget for. Anyways thanks for your time friend, happy sword hunting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 20:15:16 GMT
All I can say is you get what you pay for.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 20:37:31 GMT
Whoo boy, I'm glad Sam's on vacation or he might have given you some really harsh words, yanniskusogaki. (He's a great and knowledgeable guy when it comes to swordsmithing, but he's really blunt)  I'll paraphrase more kindly.  The thing some people don't realize before they have learned a lot about swords is just how much work and expense is involved to get you a quality product. People wonder why so much of the sub-$100 stuff you find on trueswords is crap---> it's because that's usually the best you can get with a sub-$100 price tag. For example--you can get a very simple-looking sword like this made in crappy stainless steel for less than $100:  But to get a functional, REAL sword in a design even that simple, you would almost undoubtedly have to pay more than twice that. Here's how Sam, a very knowledgeable blacksmith, breaks it down: "For anyone serious or interested, I actually priced out materials and the time it would take to make this based on my experience and the experience of a professional, like John, who I have watched extensively grind blades and is quite quick: 1 bar of 1/4" thick by 1 1/2" wide 1075/1080 from admiral steel (scrap doesn't matter, you PAID for the steel somewhere along the line) - 22.74$ 1 36 grit 3M 2x72 (standard knife and swordmaker's belt size) sanding belt - 3.50$ Now considering the 1000$+ grinder, fabricated quench tank 50$, and 500$ forge are payed off already, no added expense there 5 gallons of peanut or canola oil 25$ Tank of propane for the forge 25$ So we are at 75.50$ without even getting started on it. Factor in 1/2 hours time worth of grinding, then 20 minutes heating and quenching the blade, atleast 1 hour to temper, 10 minutes to box it up and have the fedex or UPS guy pick it up and it's 2 hours work in total and you have a nasty oil dripping 36 grit rough ground blade wrapped in plastic and packed in a tube We have 75.50$ worth of materials involved, and 2 hours labor. Based on your dislike and miscalculation of paying anyone 250$ an hour I'll go one better and cut that in more than half, 100$ an hour, and that's 275.50$ and it doesn't even factor is gas and shipping to acquire materials. You might think 'what help is this to me?' but it better helps you to understand what actually goes into this sort of thing, so you can better understand why things cost what they do. "As you can see, Scorpion's prices are EXTREMELY reasonable for the quality product that they deliver. This is one of those industries where you get what you pay for. Chris is also a respected member of this board, and I would politely ask you to hold your tongue before you say something like "a blade cut out of a billet, then ground,heat-treated and then edgework that's less than a sweat's work for any craftsman" with regards to the work he and his company have done. You perhaps didn't know any better, so that's understandable here. But now you do know better. Make no mistake. There are no free lunches--if you want a good sword, you have to pay good sword prices, even for a very basic piece. You pay crap sword prices, you get crap swords, even for something fancy-looking. I apologize if I sound harsh; that is not my intention. We all deserve to have our questions answered, and we all were new to real swords at one time, and we all have room to learn more. But you must understand that your comment came across as quite offensive. I hope you can see where I was coming from. I'm glad you've joined the forum, thanks for finding us here and jumping aboard. There's a lot here to learn and a lot of good people to learn from.  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 20:46:50 GMT
www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=BK1388&name=Battle+Worn+Fantasy+Spartan+SwordYeah I've seen the dudes work.Nice and simple, but that doesn't reflect on the price.His is in the 200+ zone and I don't work in that one.If it is a blade cut out of a billet, then ground,heat-treated and then edgework that's less than a sweat's work for any craftsman. it should be like 100$ max we're talking about here.I mean for 180 you can get a falcata from windlass or depeeka,they're both hand forged and really good at what they do.Or for the 200+ he's asking get a cheness oniyuri,now that's a blade I'd exeed my 100$ budget for. Anyways thanks for your time friend, happy sword hunting. I take it you're a swordsmith? I happily await Sam's exuberant response to this one. Good call Luna...for all the good it'll do. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 22:37:45 GMT
All I can say is you get what you pay for. That's the least true sentence ever especially when it comes to tools...don't forget that's what a sword is. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2010 23:02:08 GMT
All I can say is you get what you pay for. That's the least true sentence ever especially when it comes to tools...don't forget that's what a sword is. For there to be jewels in the junk, the majority must be junk. And at the end of the day, a real anvil is better than a hunk of scrap, a $10 screwdriver better than the $0.65 Wal Mart one. And simply writing off Scorpion Knives- who do extremely high quality work considering the price- is just plain stupid. Please tell me how you can magically grind heat-treat and sharpen a weapon PROPERLY while also assembling its component parts, and keep balance, geometry, and quality of extra materials (aka handle) in check? Cutting out blades is a well-respected form of making swords- I can't remember where, but I hear friggin ALBION does it! And if they don't, other credible swordmakers do. Moreover, you're forgetting the division of labour: in China, you can pay SKILLED, EDUCATED technicians $2 or $3 an hour or less. Get in twenty such technicians, be they smiths, carpenters, or semi-talented labourers, pay the local silk-girls $.50 an hour, and have each stage of production divided up so that only one person is forgin one section, the next guy another one, you have one guy putting the sword together, a girl doing the leather/cloth working one is wrapping the scabbard.... etc etc. And you can then make, say, 20 $250 swords a day while only paying around $50 all round in wages. That's how costs are kept low. It's a basic fundamental procedure of modern MASS-PRODUCTION. Chris, on the other hand, is doing this on his own time on his own or with 1 or 2 other (if that) American smiths. Which means he's doing EVERY step of production either on his OWN or with LITTLE help. I would direct you to Lunaman's post for anything else (btw +1 from me) and say please please please inform yourself rather than just writing off skilled craftsmen. At this rate I may as well just write off a carpenter because he didn't cut down the tree.... |
|
|
|
Post by sparky on Jan 21, 2010 23:57:32 GMT
First welcome to the forum! ;D This is not about swords but tools. I'm an electrician by trade and I use screw drivers and lineman's pliers everyday, as well as a bunch of other tools. My point is that I could buy cheap tools and save money........ not. They wear out faster or break. They are not as comfortable, trust me when you are turning a screw driver all day long comfort it important! ;DNa never mind. One thing not included in Lunaman's post (of Sam's post ) the tax man! Okay a couple of things, rent on the shop. If there are employees, that adds a whole new dimension. It a cheap to work in todays world. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 0:07:35 GMT
Whoo boy, I'm glad Sam's on vacation or he might have given you some really harsh words, yanniskusogaki. (He's a great and knowledgeable guy when it comes to swordsmithing, but he's really blunt) I'll paraphrase more kindly. The thing some people don't realize before they have learned a lot about swords is just how much work and expense is involved to get you a quality product. People wonder why so much of the sub-$100 stuff you find on trueswords is crap---> it's because that's usually the best you can get with a sub-$100 price tag. For example--you can get a very simple-looking sword like this made in crappy stainless steel for less than $100: But to get a functional, REAL sword in a design even that simple, you would almost undoubtedly have to pay more than twice that. Here's how Sam, a very knowledgeable blacksmith, breaks it down: "For anyone serious or interested, I actually priced out materials and the time it would take to make this based on my experience and the experience of a professional, like John, who I have watched extensively grind blades and is quite quick: 1 bar of 1/4" thick by 1 1/2" wide 1075/1080 from admiral steel (scrap doesn't matter, you PAID for the steel somewhere along the line) - 22.74$ 1 36 grit 3M 2x72 (standard knife and swordmaker's belt size) sanding belt - 3.50$ Now considering the 1000$+ grinder, fabricated quench tank 50$, and 500$ forge are payed off already, no added expense there 5 gallons of peanut or canola oil 25$ Tank of propane for the forge 25$ So we are at 75.50$ without even getting started on it. Factor in 1/2 hours time worth of grinding, then 20 minutes heating and quenching the blade, atleast 1 hour to temper, 10 minutes to box it up and have the fedex or UPS guy pick it up and it's 2 hours work in total and you have a nasty oil dripping 36 grit rough ground blade wrapped in plastic and packed in a tube We have 75.50$ worth of materials involved, and 2 hours labor. Based on your dislike and miscalculation of paying anyone 250$ an hour I'll go one better and cut that in more than half, 100$ an hour, and that's 275.50$ and it doesn't even factor is gas and shipping to acquire materials. You might think 'what help is this to me?' but it better helps you to understand what actually goes into this sort of thing, so you can better understand why things cost what they do. "As you can see, Scorpion's prices are EXTREMELY reasonable for the quality product that they deliver. This is one of those industries where you get what you pay for. Chris is also a respected member of this board, and I would politely ask you to hold your tongue before you say something like "a blade cut out of a billet, then ground,heat-treated and then edgework that's less than a sweat's work for any craftsman" with regards to the work he and his company have done. You perhaps didn't know any better, so that's understandable here. But now you do know better. Make no mistake. There are no free lunches--if you want a good sword, you have to pay good sword prices, even for a very basic piece. You pay crap sword prices, you get crap swords, even for something fancy-looking. I apologize if I sound harsh; that is not my intention. We all deserve to have our questions answered, and we all were new to real swords at one time, and we all have room to learn more. But you must understand that your comment came across as quite offensive. I hope you can see where I was coming from. I'm glad you've joined the forum, thanks for finding us here and jumping aboard. There's a lot here to learn and a lot of good people to learn from. I am sorry if I offended any of you with my ignorance.And as for Sam I do prefer blunt and reliable rather than sharp and breakable. so he can go ahead and make his comment as blunt as he can.Same goes for harsh!I am sorry. But I do have to point out a few things at risk of making more ignorant comments.I can somehow accept the billet price and maybe the belt but I've seen a smith's work from point blank a few times, although he was forging the things he made so I can tell 5 gallons of oil and a whole tank of propane (that's 50 bucks) are not used for one single blade.So you're still around 30$ of supplies (I'll go 50$ just to round it up) . Now I've not made a decent blade yet but that's 'cause I'm still on my 2nd try.But I still am a craftsman aside from blades and my work is not easy either but from where I am standing nobody should get 100$ an hour if he is not a neuro surgeon or a famous performer or something. I guess my question/problem is how can I consider buying his cut out of a billet thin machete like blade (not trying to offend just telling the truth) when for a lesser price I can buy the del tin or windlass falcata (hand forged)...or even go to these guys: www.ancientarms.biz/servlet/StoreFrontbuy a "damascus" blade (now that's tough to make) and customize my own funtional sword.They're all hand made, have great steel and lots of effort in them...how come they are reasonable?Like I said congrats for his beautyfull and simple (that's good in my book) pieces but come on...over not only the 100$ limit but the also the 200$ one?You just cut out more than 70% of the sword loving crowd! Once again I am sorry for any insolence.I too love blunt truth.It is just that my experience not in blades but generally in crafts tells me when something looks over priced it most of the times is. Thank you for your answers and for having me aboard. |
|
|
|
Post by Jeff K. ( Jak) on Jan 22, 2010 0:07:45 GMT
Wonder where this thread is going? Oh, wait...I already know!  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 0:53:08 GMT
That's the least true sentence ever especially when it comes to tools...don't forget that's what a sword is. For there to be jewels in the junk, the majority must be junk. And at the end of the day, a real anvil is better than a hunk of scrap, a $10 screwdriver better than the $0.65 Wal Mart one. And simply writing off Scorpion Knives- who do extremely high quality work considering the price- is just plain stupid. Please tell me how you can magically grind heat-treat and sharpen a weapon PROPERLY while also assembling its component parts, and keep balance, geometry, and quality of extra materials (aka handle) in check? Cutting out blades is a well-respected form of making swords- I can't remember where, but I hear friggin ALBION does it! And if they don't, other credible swordmakers do. Moreover, you're forgetting the division of labour: in China, you can pay SKILLED, EDUCATED technicians $2 or $3 an hour or less. Get in twenty such technicians, be they smiths, carpenters, or semi-talented labourers, pay the local silk-girls $.50 an hour, and have each stage of production divided up so that only one person is forgin one section, the next guy another one, you have one guy putting the sword together, a girl doing the leather/cloth working one is wrapping the scabbard.... etc etc. And you can then make, say, 20 $250 swords a day while only paying around $50 all round in wages. That's how costs are kept low. It's a basic fundamental procedure of modern MASS-PRODUCTION. Chris, on the other hand, is doing this on his own time on his own or with 1 or 2 other (if that) American smiths. Which means he's doing EVERY step of production either on his OWN or with LITTLE help. I would direct you to Lunaman's post for anything else (btw +1 from me) and say please please please inform yourself rather than just writing off skilled craftsmen. At this rate I may as well just write off a carpenter because he didn't cut down the tree.... You saw it here: I never said it's not good/credible or respectable I said it's easier.I would never forge a blade if I could save me the trouble and cut it out of a billet either.It's cool.I second the notion! What about mass production?does mass production make a lesser sword or tool?If not then why should I prefer a craftsman with 2-3 times the price. What about 1or2 helpers?I work my craft alone and not one guy left my doorstep unsatisfied and without saying "you sure that's enough money?" Writting off?...when did saying an opinion about someones work became such a thing!I mean imagine your reaction if I thought his work sucked on top of being over-priced!I said I like it OK?But if you think a falcata or a kopis is worth 1/3 the average guy's payroll I can't take you seriously and you can't blame me for it. How come I'm always the uninformed and oblivious to everything just because I am the new guy?I would like to hear it just once"Hey,the greenhorn's got a point". How come you know that I haven't been around swords all my life I just decided to come join a forum? Anyways I got my fill of "you talkn' 'bout my friend?" comments for this month last week,so if you would please not continue talking about the scorpion dude...Here,I'll just say it alright? I am sorry mon ami, I was wrong to question your craft-money analogy (and not your craft) and I will never show such know-it-all attitude to my supperiors of the blade again. |
|
|
|
Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 22, 2010 0:56:38 GMT
you can get a falcata from windlass or depeeka,they're both hand forged and really good at what they do. WTF?! I'l make you one for $700 |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 1:13:24 GMT
All I have to say is I agree with the Orig poster about scorp, sorry, But I make knives and have forged in the past, and I know where sam is coming from, but, and I say it slightly, but scorp's are a little over priced for what they are selling, I could give some examples, but will not as I can appreciate what scorp is trying to do, I can only hope he will try and make his stuff a little more reasonable or better attention to detail, And that Folks Is My Opinion.........SanMarc.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 1:27:27 GMT
you can get a falcata from windlass or depeeka,they're both hand forged and really good at what they do. WTF?! I'l make you one for $700 HAHAHAAAAAH...You're funny!Sorry friend I tend to use and break them,I have absolutely no wall-hangers (apparently untill now). Your "king of kingdom lost" is cool.Does it whack like crazy?I would buy that for a dollar...if I had one! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 1:30:30 GMT
All I have to say is I agree with the Orig poster about scorp, sorry, But I make knives and have forged in the past, and I know where sam is coming from, but, and I say it slightly, but scorp's are a little over priced for what they are selling, I could give some examples, but will not as I can appreciate what scorp is trying to do, I can only hope he will try and make his stuff a little more reasonable or better attention to detail, And that Folks Is My Opinion.........SanMarc. Much appreciated! |
|
|
|
Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 22, 2010 5:42:02 GMT
I tend to use and break them. Everybody breaks Depeekas. They're always gonna break. Possibly if you bought good swords they wouldn't break. "The best costs less if you buy it the first time" |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 5:52:02 GMT
I tend to use and break them. Everybody breaks Depeekas. They're always gonna break. Possibly if you bought good swords they wouldn't break. "The best costs less if you buy it the first time" A good point Brendon.....SanMarc. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2010 7:30:34 GMT
As for that price break-down, a good business decision is to write off the cost of the grinder (and forge, really) over the number of hours it's expected to be in operation. 1,000USD grinder with expectant 3,000 hours of operation? That'll be .33 cents an hour Not factoring in the cost of electricity to run it, of course; that'll require knowledge of the wattage and the price of the electricity locally. And then you factor in maintenance costs, which you should also write off over hours of operation. Just a bit of a poke from someone who endured Accounting  M. |
|
|
|
Post by johnlundemo1 on Jan 22, 2010 13:54:28 GMT
Swords are serious and I feel should taken seriousely. Here in the states at least materials are crazy high priced. Everything including steel has gone sky high. It takes many different belts and wheels to do a good sword finish. Cleaning up the fullers, which some folks don't even bother with takes wheels as well. The heat treat takes time and much propane even for the heat treat and temper. Sometimes though not on the last five, I have buy special carbide cutters to do fullers on my milling machine, but I mostly use it for pommel slots and not much fuller work. In my case I have to also heat the shop in the winter. I suppose I could get some labour to help out here but unless they were skilled craftmen all that hey could do is sweep and get in the way. Now if you concider Albion who makes high end production swords, they have many skilled craftemen working in thier shop and American craftsmen aren't cheap. They are yes CNC machine cut out but to exacting historical proportions and fit and finish are first rate. They charge alot for the sword but are worth it. Now you take a custom smith like Brendan, he has to try and compete with the likes of them price wise, but has to do everything by himself, each step. Me too for that mater and trust me many folks who who usually go to Albion ask me to beat thier price for same style sword. It isn't fair but I have to do it. You have Gus Trim swords which many concider very inexpencive for what you get, yet some find is swords high end. I'm sorry but to get a good budget sword you have to go to guys like Valiant and Hanwai. Thier stuff is very well made even if blades and such are made over seas. The custom maker is screwed having to compete with them, don't mean to semprini. I'm working on several swords right now trying to save time. like getting guards forged for a few days pomels another and blades another day, heat treating and tempering another day or so, but I still have to spend same amount of time on each sword, just saving on set up time. I have 5 swords that are now ready to do the grips, but I still have to do all the polishing and shaping of fit pommels then I have to do the etchings and a ton of file work and then make scabbards and forge the chape tips. If I could I would have a shelf with many different cast hilt parts, just ain't gotten there as I have to take the custom orders to keep shop going and pay mortgage and my wife has to work as well. Alot of you young folks have to wake up when you are out on your own and buy your own groceries, car payment, rent etc. There may be no monies left for swords, but you will also learn that good things can cost and grow to respect the stuggling crafts person and maybe save for something a little nicer. I have had cheap swords and Machetes and all have broken when used for it's intended purpous, so what did I save? You could have someone like Brendan or Sam make you a 300 styled sword and it may cost you, but it will last a lifetime and beyond. I've made hundreds and hundreds of swords. some were made for cuttings and some for full contact sword to sword sparring and reenactment and they are still being used daily even after 15 years, I still have the first sword I ever made and it is almost 25 years old.
The Japanese styled sword market is saturated with samurai sword even with real hamons and stingray and many are made well for well under $300. How can I compete with that? Have a heart! The sword market is highly competitive for factory made even. My advice is just to save and stay away from stainless blades with welded tangs, they WILL break!
|
|
I'll paraphrase more kindly. 
