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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 21, 2009 21:58:34 GMT
shadowhowler you seem to have missed my point, i don't mean that windlass and and hanwei will fold if no one buys from them direct, i mean that when there's nowhere to handle the swords in person, such as mall stores, then no one will buy from KoA either. who SHIPS you your sword, and takes their $20 profit from it, isn't who keeps this industry alive. i also take from this thread that none of you are hobbyists? or collectors? or friends with each other? because you all seem PRETTY focused on "Number One" and making sure YOU get the best end of the stick instead of helping out the guys who hooked you up, or future generations who might want to touch a sword without paying for it first....... I think your a bit of an alarmist my friend. Physical stores where you can buy quality swords are, and have always been, few and far between. The Internet has HELPED the sword industry as a whole grow and get better. Now just because there is not a store in my area doesn't mean I just sigh and accept that I can't get one... I can go on-line and find just about anything. Swords have been getting better and better in quality as well... just look at the new Fletcher/Atrim inspired swords from Valiant Armoury, or the Tinker inspired swords from Hanwei... ...I think you have it backward. The Internet and on-line sword retailers are NOT the death of the sword industry at all... they have given it new and better life.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 23:03:14 GMT
I'd have to agree with Shadowhowler. The only place I can get swords outside the internet is at a Ren Faire and the selection there can be hit or miss.
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Post by Ronin Katana on Dec 21, 2009 23:18:13 GMT
It's just a matter of time before someone starts selling Hanwei at 5% over wholesale and crashes the entire market. That will put an end to most of the internet sellers.
I discussed that topic with Hanwei reps this summer, and they are very concerned about it. Their partner exclusive program did not curb price declines as much as they had hoped. I suspect they will move towards forcing sellers to actually stock items, or implement minimum order requirements.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 1:17:28 GMT
thank you ronin katana. I knew I could count on you. I guess you just need experience as a vendor to really get what I'm saying.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 2:19:22 GMT
It's just a matter of time before someone starts selling Hanwei at 5% over wholesale and crashes the entire market. That will put an end to most of the internet sellers. I discussed that topic with Hanwei reps this summer, and they are very concerned about it. Their partner exclusive program did not curb price declines as much as they had hoped. I suspect they will move towards forcing sellers to actually stock items, or implement minimum order requirements. exactly. i've also talked to Hanwei about it. if THEY're worried. I'm worried. it was my thought that as sword connoisseurs you'd worry too. guess....not?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 2:25:48 GMT
I have 2 choices. And it's really quite simple:
1) Buy a sword on the internet
2) Don't buy swords.
There is not a store close enough to me to make it worth my while. So either I buy online or I don't buy at all. Which is better for the industry? Open store on Long Island. Offer decent prices. I'll drop by and take a look.
And I still think you are asking something that goes against basic economic principle. I am always going to try to get the best value for my dollar. Is that selfish? No. No more selfish than the guy selling the item trying to get the best price for his wares. I am not going to spend more money than I have to simply because I have to worry about someone else's business model.
I do try to buy from different vendors to sort of "spread the wealth" but most of them are all within tolerable price range of each other. But I won't go directly to Hanwei and pay 30% more for the same sword I can get at KOA. And I certainly won't go to a showroom and pay 50% more.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 3:17:05 GMT
With attitudes like that I cannot understand how we got into such a recession.
Oh wait..
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 3:18:38 GMT
Should we be worried if the exclusive program does not work?...
From the standpoint of Hanwei and it's retailer, the failure of the exclusive program means less profit to go around between Hanwei and the retailers, and it might mean more online retailer closing shop and losing their job (especially in our crappy economy today) as they could not stand the heat of competition. It sucks from a retailers standpoint when other retailer undercuts one another. Ultimately, perhaps only very few retailers who could withstand the heat of the competition will survive from the undercutting.
But from the standpoint of consumer, it means I can buy my sword at the lowest price from my favorite retailer. Should I, as a consumer, be worried when the market forces are doing its work? Not really to be honest because in the end, only retailers that offers a combination of low price and great customer service gets my money.
Hanwei has greater problems to worry about: other sword manufacturers: Valiant Armoury, Windlass, Dynasty Forge, Cheness, ebay retailers (so on and so forth). Just to exaggerate a little, suppose Windlass could produce and sell sword much cheaper than Hanwei and at much better quality. Hanwei is now forced to either produce better products, charge lower price to be able to survive the sword making industry.
Sword industry, like most other industries, faces cut-throat competitions from their competitors. It is expected from them (just like any other industry) to keep producing quality products to match or exceed their competitors and to survive. Business as usual.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 3:41:53 GMT
With attitudes like that I cannot understand how we got into such a recession. Oh wait.. Really? Really? Ok.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 22, 2009 3:45:26 GMT
I guess time will tell as to if everyone goes out of business or if some of these fears being expressed are somewhat exaggerated.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:17:30 GMT
With attitudes like that I cannot understand how we got into such a recession. Oh wait.. We got into a recession because people were spending more money than they had and it caught up to them. Basic Economics 101. Spending more money than an item is worth just to support a bad business model isn't a good idea no matter how you try to rationalize it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:17:38 GMT
With attitudes like that I cannot understand how we got into such a recession. Oh wait.. Really? Really? Ok. really.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:22:51 GMT
With attitudes like that I cannot understand how we got into such a recession. Oh wait.. We got into a recession because people were spending more money than they had and it caught up to them. Basic Economics 101. Spending more money than an item is worth just to support a bad business model isn't a good idea no matter how you try to rationalize it. You do have a point. We should all pay the bare minimum for everything and hoard every penny that we possibly can. Keeping as much money out of circulation as possible will help stabilize the economy. Right?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:25:54 GMT
But from the standpoint of consumer, it means I can buy my sword at the lowest price from my favorite retailer. Should I, as a consumer, be worried when the market forces are doing its work? Not really to be honest because in the end, only retailers that offers a combination of low price and great customer service gets my money. So if a company is not able to offer prices as low as another company, but offers superior customer service and the option to handle a sword before purchasing, would it not make the slightly higher price tag worth it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:27:59 GMT
We got into a recession because people were spending more money than they had and it caught up to them. Basic Economics 101. Spending more money than an item is worth just to support a bad business model isn't a good idea no matter how you try to rationalize it. You do have a point. We should all pay the bare minimum for everything and hoard every penny that we possibly can. Keeping as much money out of circulation as possible will help stabilize the economy. Right? It would promote savings/investments which would allow banks to do more lending to businesses. Again, this is basic economics. Besides this is a capatalistic market, it behooves you to find the best deal you can for the item/service level you can find. Just because someone else wants to pay more than me doesn't I have to if I can get it cheaper.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:32:27 GMT
Wasn't there some kind of hullabaloo going on a while back regarding banks loaning more than they had and needing bailouts from the government to avoid going under? I can't say for certain, I didn't take economics 101.
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Post by sicheah on Dec 22, 2009 4:36:58 GMT
But from the standpoint of consumer, it means I can buy my sword at the lowest price from my favorite retailer. Should I, as a consumer, be worried when the market forces are doing its work? Not really to be honest because in the end, only retailers that offers a combination of low price and great customer service gets my money. So if a company is not able to offer prices as low as another company, but offers superior customer service and the option to handle a sword before purchasing, would it not make the slightly higher price tag worth it? You are right, it does, and having a real brick and mortar shop means more overhead expenses on rent and hiring workers. Retailers need not offer the lowest price in order to stay in business. If they cannot compete in price, they have to be creative and find ways to maintain their business. They know consumers value a reliable customer service and having the opportunity to handle their goods. Certain consumers also value retailers who matches the lowest price. It would be nice if there is a sword shop close to where I live, but for most of us (and especially those who reside outside of US) we have very little choice but to shop online.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:38:16 GMT
14th forsaken you bring up an interesting point. the same way that people taking out loans they couldn't afford is one of the principal reason we're in the slump we're in now, people wanting things for 5 and 10% over cost is whats killing the sword market now. look at it this way : if you want a Practical Plus, but you don't want to spend $400...... GET A JOB AND SAVE YOUR MONEY! if you want a PPK but only have $250 you CANT AFFORD THAT SWORD! get a cheness piece instead, i'm sure it will be VERY nice. shucks, Musashi has some real nice pieces for around that, even a little cheaper, but you CANNOT AFFORD A PPK IF YOU ONLY HAVE $250! its not a good DEAL, its BAD ECONOMICS. soon, places are going to have to LIE to get your business, and start SAYING the swords are $2500 to get their "real" value of $400 out of it, but you wont CARE that you're getting fleeced because you just want to feel like you've "Won" against the "EEEEEEVIL merchants", who just want to Nickel & Dime you to death. tell you strait up : the sword and knife stores i've had the privilege to both visit, patronize, and work at have ALL been about the passion and the fun of being in this industry and being able to handle and provide swords. NOT make loads of money by "Jacking Up" prices. and you really are just coming off more and more short sighted here. Shadowhowlers "wait and see" is surely a strategy after a kind, but MY fear is that (like the economy and climate change [supposedly]) it will be too late to fix by the time we see it's true effects you make me sad, sir knights
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:39:14 GMT
Banks were loaning money they didn't have because people weren't saving money. Loans were being made based upon inflated equity values in property, a very risky move. A bank's loaning ability is highly dependent on savings. That's why saving is very important in an economy such as ours. It is the engine that drives loans which drives businesses which drives jobs, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2009 4:43:12 GMT
I was talking more about hoarding my money in my mattress or a hole in the ground. I am an ardent foe of the federal reserve and will remain as such. They can find money from somewhere else I'm sure.
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