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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 21, 2009 8:06:37 GMT
Enlighten me. that's what discussion is for. I'd love to see the light, but i have a pretty pessimistic view of the future of sword companies and sales. i WISH i could see some light at the end of the tunnel. First off... you say if people keep shopping at KoA instead of shopping with Hanwei or Windlass Directly, then Hanwei and Windlass will go out of buissness. Thats just not true. Hanwei and Windlass do the VAST majority of their buissnes via wholesale... selling swords to KoA, Wiwingti, Swordnation, SBG Store, and hundrads, maybe thousands of other online retailers, who then in turn resell the swords. VERY few people ever buy their swords from Hanwei or Windlass directly. This is a common buissness model... not just for the sword industry, but for many industries. Secondly, you mention the PPK's price being $399... thats if you actually DO buy it directly from Hanwei, which I'm sure some people do, but not most. I used to work in the Auto Industry... we have prices on cars also... but most people don't want to PAY the price we have on the car, they want a better deal. Its EXPECTED that they will shop around, look for the best price. I myselfl have NEVER paid MSRP on a car, and I never will. However, some people do... some people walk right in, don't want to bargin at all, they just put down their money and drive off. Hell... Satrun made an entire buissnes model on the fact that some people would just rather come in and pay the MSRP and not have to 'haggle'... amazing to me that they managed to convince people it was a GOOD thing to just pay what they told them to... but I digress. The Wholesale price that Hanwei or Windlass sells their products to retails for is much lower then the MSRP that they list on their sites... and thus its up to the retailers to then price their swords as they see fit when reselling them... trying to find the balanc between competative pricing that the marlet will bare and profit. Anyway... they point of this is to refute what you said about Hanwei and Windlass going out of buissness if people keep shopping at KoA, or other places like them. Its just not the case.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 9:27:05 GMT
I feel like the janitor of an elementary school.
Where is my bucket of sawdust?
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 21, 2009 9:33:25 GMT
I feel like the janitor of an elementary school. Where is my bucket of sawdust? Errr... huh? BTW... I used to live in Rialto CA for a couple years... you have my pity for your current location, one of the only places I'd want to be less then where I am now.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 9:53:49 GMT
well thankfully I'm as tough as a bucket of nails, so it isn't a big deal.
My train of thought was drunkenly hijacked and driven off a cliff, but my main point/question was really: Does anyone here believe in sometimes paying a bit extra to help out a small Independent business that might not be able to afford to have prices that are as low as other places? Or do the majority here prefer to get a deal because "every little bit counts"?
Some companies do a decent job of policing their MSRP's to keep everything fair. Benchmade has started cracking down on their dealers and cutting off the ones that refuse to sell for MSRP. Probably why you won't find Benchmade knives at Walmart
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 14:09:24 GMT
Depends on the manufacturer. If I feel what the manufacturer is making is worth what they're selling it for, I'd buy from them. However, if I find a better deal on an item by that manufacturer at a different location being sold retail (not consignment), then I would be more apt to pay the lower price. The manufacturer sells to the distributor. Distributor sells to the consumer. That's how this food chain works. The manufacturer is getting their money for the item regardless. The MSRP is just a suggestion, not a rule. A few industries have standardized pricing, which is why you can get an XBox 360 for the same price at WalMart that you can at Game Stop. However, I don't believe that this is an issue for most industries. The manufacturer isn't hurting for money, or they would sell for a higher profit to the distributor. Or enforce standardized pricing. As far as independent businesses go, if I have the option of paying almost half the price for the same item at another retailer, than I'm going to shop at the other retailer. To pay twice the price for the same exact product is just foolish. I support small business, but only to the point that it makes sense. I buy my meats from a local grocer and not Walmart or Kroger. I shop for my wife's Vera Bradley items from a small local shop instead of bigger chains or the manufacturer. But I do NOT slaughter my wallet to support these places. I am a consumer, it isn't my job to make sure these people stay in business if they can't keep up. I buy from them because it's convienient, similar in price, and I get good service. Not because I take pity on them for being smaller. They can maintain pricing with other stores in the area on the products without making me want to shop on Amazon. But if one of them is charging double the price for something I know I can get elsewhere for less, I'm going to buy it for less. That's just good sense.
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Post by djhere on Dec 21, 2009 15:17:02 GMT
theowl,Im one of those guys that if Im treated right-Ill go out of my way to support the small retailer.I like to give the little guy achance whenever possible.The only store Ive come across in my travels was in W.Edmonton mall in alberta-The Supply Sargent,mostly Paul Chen blades and out of my reach-they will let you handle them-but they are very nervous when you do so.I guess Im saying,ya-I would like to walk into a store and browse around-get to know the staff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 15:31:19 GMT
Isnt there a big sword store in Excalibur in Vegas? I seem to remember there was but I've never been.
At one point Cutlery World and Hoffritz (same company btw) had over 1600 locations worldwide, all selling swords. I dont go to malls or really shop but I assume they are still out there?
For that matter there are sword stores connected with all the Midieval Times at least around here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 15:41:38 GMT
I feel like the janitor of an elementary school. Where is my bucket of sawdust? Burn the witches!!!!! ;D Many venues (particularly bladed forums such as SBG) are analogous to parables such as the five apes in a cage. After awhile, the population may no longer understand why they attack without reason or even acknowledge a difference of opinion. Color the masses here quite often a bit hypocritical. As to KOA, they have a track record and appear to be as (or more) solvent as a drop ship operation. Their shoproom has been visited and reviewed (perhaps not by an SBGer but on other venues). That they do seem to offer and sell a fair amount of real junk probably at least keeps the lights on. They are not unique in the brick and mortar territory. Certainly, a good bit of their revenue is internet sales and a lot of that for sales of the real junk. There is a real entity there, as the proprietor does listen to the market (not just hear) and has gone to the lengths of actually stocking goods from the real junk level, up to the higher level spreads of Arms & Armor, as well as Albion. Neither of the last two mentioned American makers are new to sharing with retail sellers. Albion branched quickly and somewhat decisively quite early on. A&A, on the other hand, sold through the early years of Museum Replicas. In a sense (and I wish Albion no real ill will) Albion has become the evil empire of the American makers industry. Apparent in the churn and burn of the employees there, the costs are reflected in more than a few points of venture. Moving back to the brick and mortar, there are few that survive without having had a good amount of capital up front and some may be able to write off significant costs of operating a physical location. Yes, it has been noted that some do charge a little more than what one sees at KOA and others. For some, this seems a real plus, while others will vie for the slimmest profit possible and hope volume will make it work. The bottm line drop shippers do enough volume to make it worth their time and some frequenting SBG forums make a point of offering bottom line pricing while insisting best intentions. In some regards that holds somewhat true and the small number of real complaints is lost in the woo and check out this deal propositions. Some even put a little more behind the overall thought of value for the crowd here. The denial there though is that this is a retail based forum. It has, though offered the access gained here to subjectively benefit from the somewhat ceaseless campaigning and sales of less expensive swords to many visiting here (as opposed to any other advertising). So anyway. Is a brick and mortar business model any more likely to attract a premium over wholesale pricing? There are a lot of concessions some of these physical location retailers sometimes have to allow in staying afloat. A large part of that seems to be the profits allowed on the real junk and impulse sales. Using KOA as such a model, I've no doubt that is somewhat the truth. Are there really good old buddies in the drop ship bracket? It seems there are and even more serious issues at times are washed clean by the promise of a better deal.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 16:13:38 GMT
Just for the record KOA does not drop ship our product. They purchase from us in volume and maintain their own inventory.
I have no idea what they do with other manufacturers but they have been very good to deal with for me.
The same goes for Albion back when they were a vendor for us. Howy stocked our swords and paid for them in full.
We really dont carry stock at all, the few items on our available site are because the dealers are stocked up already for winter.
There is another side of the coin, guys you might consider drop shippers (Age of Chivalry and KOA) have around a hundred items from us in inventory between them. We are just a tiny part of their inventory. That seems a far cry from the guy who tells you he can get your sword if you will just point to it in a catalog.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 17:34:40 GMT
So...paying more for the same sword is...good? And I am wrong and a horrible person for wanting to save money? Is that some kind of voodoo economics?
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 21, 2009 17:59:36 GMT
well thankfully I'm as tough as a bucket of nails, so it isn't a big deal. Heh. Tough won't stop a bullet, I got shot at a couple times in the two yars I lived there... but I lived ina crappy part of town as well. I've noticed in the 20 years or so since I lived there that the San Bernardino county Sheriff's Dept. is a top contributer to the 'COPS' program... always funny to watch something go down in an an area I used to live. Hopefully you live in a nicer patch. My train of thought was drunkenly hijacked and driven off a cliff, but my main point/question was really: Does anyone here believe in sometimes paying a bit extra to help out a small Independent business that might not be able to afford to have prices that are as low as other places? Or do the majority here prefer to get a deal because "every little bit counts"? If there was a Brick & Mortar store in my area that sword quality functional swords, didn't jack the price TOO high, had a good selection and a knowledgeable staff and would let you handle the items while you try to make a choice, I would absolutely pay a bit more to them to support them and keep them in buissness. I would LOVE the chance to have a local seller with stock on hand I could look over, and people I could look in the eye, talk to, get to know. I think that would be worth a slightly higher price... not double the price, to be sure, but worth a bit more. Even when I'm shopping online I'll pay a bit more to buy from an online vendor with a good rep that I feel I can trust... this is why I avoid most E-bay stores. However, if I have mutiple optiosn from online vendors I can trust and feel safe about, of course I'll go with the one with the best price. To do otherwise would be, to me, foolish. Also, as Kerry mntioned, KoA is a bit different then most online retail stores in that they do have a physical storefront that people have visited, and they DO keep a pretty sizeable invatory. They do drop ship as well, but a LOT of what you buy from KoA actually comes directly from KoA and has been in there invatory for a time. Unlike a lot of people here, KoA is NOT my go-to store tho... everyone has different expericnes and mine were not as good as most others, but I do think they are a lot different then most retailers in they way they keep stock and mantain a physical storefront, which is worth mentioning.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 19:03:43 GMT
I have never bought a sword online. I handled all swords I bought before buying them. BUT, I paid them much more than any of you would. Why? There is only one decent place in the entire Croatia where you can buy swords (luckily about 1 hour and 15, 20 minutes from me) and buying online is heavily taxed, I don't have a credit card, money transfers are very expensive, etc... So you guys should be grateful for being able to order cheaply from KoA, wiwingty or anyone else... For example, in a few weeks I'll have to pay between $430 and $450 for a Hanwei Tinker Great Sword of War or Longsword. And that's with 10% discount for cash.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 21, 2009 19:11:31 GMT
I have never bought a sword online. I handled all swords I bought before buying them. BUT, I paid them much more than any of you would. Why? There is only one decent place in the entire Croatia where you can buy swords (luckily about 1 hour and 15, 20 minutes from me) and buying online is heavily taxed, I don't have a credit card, money transfers are very expensive, etc... So you guys should be grateful for being able to order cheaply from KoA, wiwingty or anyone else... For example, in a few weeks I'll have to pay between $430 and $450 for a Hanwei Tinker Great Sword of War or Longsword. And that's with 10% discount for cash. Owch my friend... Yeah, I have noticed that overseas people have to pay a LOT more then I do here in the states... and I feel for you guys and am grateful for myself at the same time. That price difference is pretty much the whole reason I bought those two Katana on Ebay awhilke back and reviewed them... I figured they might not be the best option for me or others in the USA, but for you guys overseas they were a bargin, so if they where even half decent I wanted to get the info out there.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 19:22:17 GMT
I really can't see how a brick and mortar store would even be possible with so many online stores selling so low. There's a place at a nearby mall to me, but... the swords are very low quality and I've seen them with "going out of business sales" twice... they never ACTUALLY went out of business, but... it's just a matter of time.
I think that with something as specific as swords, there is only just so much demand in any given area... on a national level it tends to work well because you are catering to so many people, but the moment you pin it down to say... a single city or county, demand just isn't there.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 21, 2009 19:24:48 GMT
Functional swords are a pretty niche market, possibly even a smaller market than wall-hangers. As such, there aren't going to be a lot of brick and mortar stores selling them. I just isn't generally financially justifiable to pay for local real estate if there isn't enough local demand for your product. Same is true of any niche product. Lots of towns have a Kawasaki dealership, not so many have a Ducati store. The way many little local businesses which cater to a niche crowd stay in business is to also sell on-line with their warehouse also acting as their physical store. I don't mind paying a little more for something I need to hold in my hand before I purchase it. But if you're concerned about supporting local and independent, why not take the bigger step of buying from BKS or Albion instead of overseas makers? That's a devil's advocate question. The bigger picture is that everything is local to someone. Wherever you buy your sword from is helping feed someones family somewhere. Anyone who wants to buy a sword from me is more than welcome to come feel it out first, though my place is wood rather than brick
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 20:32:53 GMT
So...paying more for the same sword is...good? And I am wrong and a horrible person for wanting to save money? Is that some kind of voodoo economics? Yes See, you get it. Maybe it's because you've lived in the ghetto. You know what it's like on the STREETS.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 20:52:57 GMT
Thanks owl! I hoped I was getting the point But to your question, which I really did not address: I absolutely would pay a bit more (10%?) for a local store that I can handle and see the swords and that has good customer support. But much more than that, no.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 21:21:34 GMT
I have never bought a sword online. I handled all swords I bought before buying them. BUT, I paid them much more than any of you would. Why? There is only one decent place in the entire Croatia where you can buy swords (luckily about 1 hour and 15, 20 minutes from me) and buying online is heavily taxed, I don't have a credit card, money transfers are very expensive, etc... So you guys should be grateful for being able to order cheaply from KoA, wiwingty or anyone else... For example, in a few weeks I'll have to pay between $430 and $450 for a Hanwei Tinker Great Sword of War or Longsword. And that's with 10% discount for cash. Owch my friend... Yeah, I have noticed that overseas people have to pay a LOT more then I do here in the states... and I feel for you guys and am grateful for myself at the same time. That price difference is pretty much the whole reason I bought those two Katana on Ebay awhilke back and reviewed them... I figured they might not be the best option for me or others in the USA, but for you guys overseas they were a bargin, so if they where even half decent I wanted to get the info out there. Thanks for the sympathy. I don't remember these reviews but I'm not a katana guy (yet ) so I probably haven't read them... Anyway, +1 for thinking of us, poor Europeans.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 21:24:12 GMT
Yes, Europe sucks on that area... but we do have great smiths here, Arno Eckhardt, Wolfgang Abart, Seelenschmiede, the guys in Solingen, Toledo...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2009 21:42:00 GMT
shadowhowler you seem to have missed my point, i don't mean that windlass and and hanwei will fold if no one buys from them direct, i mean that when there's nowhere to handle the swords in person, such as mall stores, then no one will buy from KoA either. who SHIPS you your sword, and takes their $20 profit from it, isn't who keeps this industry alive.
i also take from this thread that none of you are hobbyists? or collectors? or friends with each other? because you all seem PRETTY focused on "Number One" and making sure YOU get the best end of the stick instead of helping out the guys who hooked you up, or future generations who might want to touch a sword without paying for it first.......
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