Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 14:18:12 GMT
Just a rookie question - Is it normal for the blade of a longsword, hand and a half, or other straight bladed European sword to sag slightly under it's own weight when held with the flat of the blade in a horizontal position? My VA Practical Longsword does so, and it bothers me a little. I guess it would bother me less if I knew it was supposed to be that way. I've watched and re-watched ShooterMikes' YouTube video, and know that one gets a little whippy - but thought that might have just been from the massive g-forces he's inputting while executing those cuts. Just wondering.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 14:59:15 GMT
Blade flex is a good thing when cutting- but it should not sag AT ALL. Well, I guess if you were to lay it flat on a a balancing surface so that the only part being supported was that small bit of the blade on the balancer, a longsword MIGHT sag a bit.
How much are we talking though? Is it like a wet noodle, or does it exhibit just a little give?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 15:39:49 GMT
Many historical swords with long relatively thin blades sag a bit under their own weight. That's not s problem at all. If it was highly tapered thrusting longsword it shouldn't sag, but being XIIa, no problem.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 17:07:45 GMT
Yeah, I'd say give us some pictures to give us an idea of the severity.
|
|
|
Post by ShooterMike on Dec 10, 2009 17:33:12 GMT
Almost all the ATrim and Albion cut-oriented longswords I have will sag a bit if held in the manner you described. For instance, my 1562s and my 1566 all sag the tip about 2-3 inches out of line, starting about 5-6 inches from the end of the fuller. The big question is, "Where does it start to sag?" If it's all in the last half of the blade, that's good. If it sags in the first half, it's probably a bit "noodly", so to speak. As long as the tip doesn't sag more than a few inches out of line I would think it's fine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 17:40:41 GMT
Sword sag in a dedicated cutter is to be expected, it is actually that sag from my experience that allows for good cuts because of the give. However if it were a longsword designed for cut and thrust I would expect no sag because sag doesn't make for good thrusts.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 10, 2009 18:24:28 GMT
the VA Longsword challenged my understanding of swords when I first got it for this exact reason. the trick is: when you hit a target with good edge alignment does it wobble or does it feel solid? mine feels as solid as an I-beam when it hits edge on and is an incredible cutter.
go out and cut with it, if your edge alignment is good it will slice through your targets with the greatest of ease and that means it's a good sword.
|
|
|
Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 10, 2009 19:01:47 GMT
I suppose it depends on the sword type and what you're using it for. A little sag isn't necessarily a bad thing if the sword is for cutting soft targets and has a relatively wide blade. It seems that sometimes a sword that sags just means the maker skimped a bit on metal and used steel that really should have been a bit thicker. If you are doing German long sword, a blade that sags will affect your ability to control your opponents blade in the bind and in that case, any sag is a bad thing.
It's my personal opinion that a blade should be flexible to withstand the shock of impact or setting aside an opponents blade, but as stiff as possible. Aside from a practice sword that you might want very flexible at the end so you don't injure your training partners when thrusting, I've not yet seen any advantage to a blade that is whippy or saggy. If your edge alignment and cutting form is good, you'll cut better with a stiff blade. The thing that makes a saggy/whippy blade cut better is that it's thinner where it cuts, not that it's whippy. It cuts nice because it has a thin cross section and because it has a thin cross section, it may be whippy. Wippiness is a side effect of what makes it cut well, not the cause. If a blade is flexing through the cut, you are loosing force from that side to side motion that would otherwise be moving the blade through the target.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 22:19:30 GMT
Thanks for the responses!
I'm new enough to this forum, and have little enough hobby time at the computer that I haven't yet reviewed the technical aspects of posting photos. (I'll have to remedy that ASAP) BUT to address danielandthelions, Ebon Paladin's, and ShooterMikes' questions - With the flat of the blade in a horizontal orientation the tip is probably only 1/2" below what would otherwise be the plane of the blade. ShooterMike - the sag is very consistent (no more or less at any one spot) and appears to begin about 40% of the way from the guard to the tip. Just a consistent, slight curve.
Tom K, (aka ianflaer) my cutting is so pathetic and inconsistent I'd have to fake a straight answer to your question. This is my first "real"sword, and I've had little opportunity to cut - Make that twice. Not two sessions - two bottles. The first was a 16 oz Dr. Pepper bottle, which I batted across the yard like a baseball. The second (30 seconds later) was a gallon milk jug which the Practical cut like a laser, dropping the top half into the bottom half. I'd have to say the sword felt pretty solid on both cuts (or hits as the case may be).
BTW-Nice tagline there, danielandthelions. That Crockett quote has been one of my favorites for years.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2009 23:42:08 GMT
If you are doing German long sword, a blade that sags will affect your ability to control your opponents blade in the bind and in that case, any sag is a bad thing. Except that isn't German longsword arguably more of a trusting style than a cutting one? Which would mean that you're not going to be using a dedicated cutter like an XIII, anyway. Not that intuitively I might have agreed with you about wanting the blade to stay straight, but if the likes of Gus, Tinker and Peter Johnnson disagree...
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 11, 2009 0:21:18 GMT
look in the german fechtbuches and you will see almost all of the swords illustrated having a flat diamond cross section. Talhoffer especially. this tells me that that system was devised to use stiffer swords. there are lots of surviving historic swords that sag as much if not more than the 304 so saying that a sword that sags at all is bad is, in my opinion a narrow opinion on a broad subject at best and misguided, misleading, wrong, and uninformed at worst.
certainly there are certain TYPES of swords that should not sag but not all longswords should not sag. not every longsword was designed to be used in Lichtenaur's tradition. and when it comes to that I bet I could set off an opponent's sword with a AT304 just fine. sure a stiffer blade like a type XVa or XVIIIc or whatever might be better at it but I'm quite confident that my 304 would do the job and I'm sure that type XIIa great swords and war swords of the medieval period functioned very well and pretty similarly to my AT304. in fact I would venture to say the AT304 would be regarded as a wonderful sword if not almost magical if I were to somehow time-warp one back to when type XIIa's were in common use.
SonofOwen, there's no need to sweat over your sword's flexibilty, it is a good sword and as you improve you will start to see just how much it is capable of.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 1:25:41 GMT
Speaking of swords that may have a little sag, the mail lady just delivered my new Maker's Mark Type XIII - which I had then to explain to my boss. Completely off topic, but I'm all excited now, it's my first Euro and my first 'full' ATrim (although I do have his tackat)!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 1:29:09 GMT
Sweet, congrats!!! Review?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 1:35:32 GMT
Will do. I needs to build me a cutting stand, I'm sure I've seen one on the main site somewhere...*goes looking for instructions*
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 11, 2009 1:59:13 GMT
very sweet! does it sag when held flat down?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 2:07:55 GMT
It's still in the box, and I doubt my co-workers would appreciate me getting it out right now to look. Plus, judging from the width of the box, I'll need to assemble the guard/hilt/pommel and I don't walk around with a set of allen keys. ...how long until quitting time, gah! I'll be quite interested to see whether the design has been upgraded, actually. Looking at Shootermike's photos of his, and the photos from Christian's site when I bought this one, I suspect it might have been (at a quick glance, the tip looks more pronounced and slightly less spatulate).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 2:23:36 GMT
I have never seen a sword that did not sag "AT ALL." It may be extremely subtle but every single sword I have ever had sagged a little. That includes a differentially hardened PPK. It was only a few millimeters but it was there. The idea that a sword shouldn't sag at all is ridiculous. A sword that stiff would shatter.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2009 3:25:08 GMT
I have a Cas Hanwei/ Tinker Pearce bastard sword (non-fullered), blade that I purchased bare and converted to a Chinese style handle and furniture. If I were to hold it from the end of the blade, it too would flex. When I first cut with it, I felt some vibration. I did not understand why, since I followed Tinker's instruction about the balance for "harmonics" sake.
Shooter Mike told me that since the blade was not a Jian, but a European sword, no mater what I customized it to be, I need to adjust my cutting habits from being Chinese Jian ( meaning not to cut from the end of the blade), to cutting in the "sweet spot of around 12 inches up. The problem was solved!!!
It would seem from what I went through with my blade, and what others are saying here, that it is not abnormal to have some flex near the end, as long as it is not too much, or too far up.
Hope this helps.
|
|
|
Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 11, 2009 20:56:09 GMT
No, there are cuts, thrusts, and slices. All are used depending on the situation.
Hey Tom, was this portion of you post - addressed to my post where I said this "If you are doing German long sword, a blade that sags will affect your ability to control your opponents blade in the bind and in that case, any sag is a bad thing."? If so, we agree. If a stiffer sword might be better, then a less stiff sword would be worse.
To reiterate, it's my understanding that western swords are not designed to sag. They sag as a result of other design considerations which in many sword types are more important than whether or not the blade has a little sag. In the same way swords aren't designed to be coated in oil. They are coated in oil because of what they are made of, not because there is some benefit to coating the blade in oil other than preventing it from rusting.
Nathan C., just as a side note, whether a sword sags or not isn't because of it's hardness, it's because of it's cross-sectional geometry. A blade that is hardened and tempered will sag just as much as a similar blade which was not hardened at all. I can make the blade harder, but I can't make it sag less unless I change the cross section.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 12, 2009 17:50:35 GMT
I agree that a sword that sags more would be less ideal for German Longsword you are right there, however the sword needs to sag SOME in order to help absorb shock and as a side effect of the sword being made thin enough to be useable as a sword. would you be willing to take a sword into a fight that was overly heavy and hard to move just because it didn't sag perceptably? I wouldn't. there's a big difference between sagging a little and being whippy. Ideally the Strong of the blade should flex very little but the weak can flex quite a bit.
Not all European Longswords were made or intended to be used with the German system (or the Italian for that matter but I know much less about the Italian schools). my point (to put it another way) is that there were longswords before there was Lichtenaur or his schools.
as for the AT304, I would consider its shorter grip a greater weakness for use in German Longsword than any flexibility it has. it doesn't flex that much in the strong mostly just in the weak.
|
|