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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 13, 2009 15:47:33 GMT
Hey Tom, that's twice now you've said something like that in this thread. Perhaps I'm misreading this but you seem to have inferred that I've stated or implied a belief that all long swords are meant to be used for German long sword. What I actually said in response to the op's question about long swords is " If you are doing German long sword..." (bold added), after first stating that "I suppose it depends on the sword type and what you're using it for." Also, to clarify- I don't consider 1/2 - 3/4 inch of sag to be perceptible. If I hold the sword horizontally in front of my face, I don't perceive any sag. Some of you may be more perceptive than I. I'd have to hold a straight edge up to it to notice that. I had a windlass sword that I could hold up and visibly see sag through the strong, that was too much sag for me. I should have made it clear that to me, if I can't see it sag when I look at it, it doesn't sag perceptibly. If that were clear you might not have said that. Otherwise, there's a lot of room between the two choices you give. I don't need a sword to weigh less than 3 pounds to be nicely usable and I don't need a sword to be over 5 pounds to be suitably stiff. It's not that difficult to make a 3 1/2- 3 3/4 pound sword 48 inches long that's stiff but flexible. That's what I personally would prefer to take into a fight if such a thing were to occur
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Post by ShooterMike on Dec 13, 2009 16:17:07 GMT
I'm with BB on this one. To me, a longsword that "sags noticeably" is pretty whippy. If you sight down the edge like a rifle barrel while holding them horizontal with the flat toward the ground, I'd think almost any longsword won't be perfectly straight. That's fine. But if you hold it the same way and it has a pronounced flex along most of the blade, I'd consider it too flexible for German or Italian longsword fighting.
Tom's VA Practical Longsword used to be mine. I considered it to be a pretty stiff sword, decently suited to cut & thrust. I have never seen an ATrim or an Albion that sags much more than that either. Even flat, thin cutters like an AT1562 or Albion Baron don't sag a lot. I think this is a case of "words are misleading and can say different things."
Too bad there aren't any written longsword manuals from the 12th century. I'd really be interested in how they used swords with both hands then.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2009 18:14:28 GMT
Just to add, even my H/T longsword sags and that's a XVIII. So even really stiff thrusters sag. Don't know about kats though. At least my ko kat doesn't sag. But that's a different story with a blade that short and thick.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 13, 2009 18:25:50 GMT
Yeah, kat's are one edged also, they have that thick spine to keep them stiff. I had this whole debate about sagging sword before. I think differently now I don't confuse flex with sag. I don't consider my VA Practical LS sags even tho if held straight out flat to the ground it doesn't remain perfectly stiff. It'll still thrusts well enough through a tire wall. Same for my Hanwei Bastard, that thing is very flexable but thrust well and I wouldn't call it whippy at all.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 13, 2009 18:57:48 GMT
ok BB I'm getting you now. I had mis-interpreted what you were saying as being a lot more absolute than it was. sorry. I guess we get down to what is considered a lot of sag. when I first saw my at304 I thought it sagged a lot and that it was easy to notice and it is to this date the only longsword I have owned so I don't really have a lot to compare it to. obviously my idea of a noticeable amount of sag and yours was not the same thing so we started from different places, traveled the same distance and wondered why we didn't end up at the same place. go fig. any way I think now that I have a better sense of where you are coming from that I do agree with you.
so to address the original question: do we all agree that the OP's 304 is likely just fine and not too whippy? I was concerned that the OP might get the idea that his sword was overly whippy when it was most likely a very good one. thus I got a little defensive and you have my apologies.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 13, 2009 19:34:40 GMT
I'm with Tom... I thought my VA AT304S was a little limp as well, as *I* could percive the sag... but as I learned more about swords and how they work, I know now that it a good sword and the flex is needed to help it be a good cutter.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Dec 13, 2009 23:54:33 GMT
Thanks Tom, I appreciate that. I should have been more clear. It's all so much easier when we're standing in the same room having a discussion Dang interwebs. Based on his description, it sounds to me that the op's 304 is not overly saggy.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 1:26:15 GMT
yeah, the Tinker Pearce bastard sword flex is only about the first 6-8". I was just discussing the difference in cutting with this type of blade and a katana with a guy on facebook... we were noticing the flexibility of the katana is built more int the width because of the diff temp thing. and the flexibility on these tend to be more in the thickness... if that made sense to you(that was our way of wording it). shootermike has some great tips for cutting with this type of blade. also if you watch his youtube at www.youtube.com/user/ShooterMikeSBG you might get some good ideas. RicWilly in another thread stated that he got better after these two ways of studying mike. p.s. mike and willy hope you dont mind me mentioning yall like that... but i really admire how that went for willy.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 14, 2009 1:43:41 GMT
I was pretty amazed when I first got my 304. I thought it was wobbly as I had only had any experience with arming swords before then and those are different animals. anyway I didn't know what to expect from it but when I cut with it man it felt as sturdy as an I beam girder. I'm all kinds of impressed with the sword. I have done some thrusting tests (carefully) with it against wood to see how the blade would react to a lot of pressure on the tip and not surprisingly for a type XIIa it didn't take a lot of pressure before the blade started to wobble and the thrusting force started to go away. I think it was able to take way more force than needed to pierce an unarmored body but I'm not sure if it would defeat mail. of course I wasn't half-swording that time. when I did half-sword the thrusting power increased considerably, I don't know how much force would be needed to pierce mail but I think you definitly have to half-sword. or better yet beat the snot out of the guy with the blade and then kill him in an unprotected spot while he's lying on the ground stunned or writhing in pain.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 1:48:18 GMT
SORRY MIKE... I JUST FOUND THIS ON YOUR YOUTUBE AND COULDN'T RESIST....notice how the cuts are timed to the music... it is terrific!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 16:18:29 GMT
so to address the original question: do we all agree that the OP's 304 is likely just fine and not too whippy? I was concerned that the OP might get the idea that his sword was overly whippy when it was most likely a very good one. I've read this thread with GREAT interest, and a little surprise that my OP generated such a detailed discussion - a testimony to the knowledge represented in this group. Anyway, thanks, Tom K, for concisely summing up what I thought I understood from the thread. My confidence in the AT304 is restored. To reiterate my lack of grounding in this topic, my only previous experience with an edged weapon over 7 inches long is a semi-blunt reproduction US Army 1850 foot officers sword I used fairly extensively in another hobby years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 17:56:52 GMT
And I learned a couple things myself...who knew about the sag thing? Well, obviously, I did not.
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Post by YlliwCir on Dec 14, 2009 21:06:47 GMT
Ah, well as a person gets older, a bit of sag is to be expected.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2009 21:35:56 GMT
Ha! I'll never admit to THAT.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Dec 14, 2009 21:53:21 GMT
thanks for the chuckle Ric, I've been reading the KI thread today (I guess I was feeling masochistic) and that chuckle was very much needed.
thank you here's a +1 for ya, because somehow you always come around at the right time to raise my spirits.
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Post by shadowhowler on Dec 14, 2009 22:40:33 GMT
Ah, well as a person gets older, a bit of sag is to be expected. Sad but true...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 21:41:45 GMT
I know this thread is as dead as Julius Cesar, but I finally took a photo to illustrate what I was trying to describe. The second is the same shot with a reference line Photoshop'ed in.
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Post by YlliwCir on Jan 25, 2010 21:54:40 GMT
Owen, I just checked a couple my swords for comparison. My VA LS sags a bit like yours, maybe not quite as much but mine's a first gen and they improved the distal taper on the later ones if I recall correctly. My Hanwei Bastard (which is really a long sword) sags (I dislike that word, let's use "dips") about like yours and I have no trouble cutting with it. Actually I notice no detriment to the cut, in fact I don't notice the dip at all when I'm cutting. I don't think it's a problem. I'd say it's normal for it to do that, in my opinion. Have you notice any issues in the cut?
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 25, 2010 22:00:10 GMT
Owen, that looks just about perfect for the type to me. That is very similar to what you'd see on my Albion Count and Baron as well as 3-4 ATrim longswords of similar size and design.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2010 22:32:56 GMT
Thanks, Rick and Mike - Confidence restored. No, I really haven't noticed cutting issues, but I'm so inexperienced I'm not sure I'd recognize some of those issues if they jumped up and bit me. But on the last cut of my last cutting session I'd got a little sloppy. It not only cut the bottle fairly cleanly, but cut the corner off the top of my stand cleaner than I could have done it with a saw. Thanks again, guys.
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