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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 14:09:49 GMT
Another Ren Faire, another disappointment. After the responses to my earlier thread, it was not such a disappointment this time - even expected. The handmade swords offered at Wichita were on a par with what I saw at KCRF a couple of weeks ago, but what was different this time was the number of vendors selling crap SLO's for $59 and under. I saw a lot of patrons carrying $40 Katanas under their arms. I really wanted to ask them if they intended to try cutting anything with it or practicing forms. But i restrained myself and practiced a little nunya... caveat emptor, and all that. So, based on my limited experience and other comments, why are quality sword dealers conspicuously absent from Ren Faires? Has it actually been tried before, or is there an automatic assumption that Renfaires "aren't the proper market?" Well, time for me to check out of this hotel and head back to my corner of Kansas... ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 14:45:34 GMT
To answer the topic question... my take is that the average patron doesn't know or care about the difference and it's more profitable to cater to the average person. I know a few people who have sword/knife like objects and they just use them for decorations...
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Sept 27, 2009 15:32:19 GMT
I'd have to say the biggest reason is price. Most folks who go to renfairs are your average joes and teenagers. Teens often times aren't going to have the money to spend on good blades and average joes won't know the difference. But what really gets me is when I see someone carrying a brand new starfire "sword" they just bought for $3oo and thinking they got a deal. Kills me everytime.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 16:34:30 GMT
Avery beat me to it... Most people don't know the difference between a Slo and a Howard Clark.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 27, 2009 17:01:34 GMT
and further more, most people don't see any need to spend $300 on a sword when the one they bought at the Ren Fair is perfectly good. and for sitting on the shelf or hanging on the wall I suppose they are right.
My mother in law bought a SLO off some home-shopping-network-like-thing and the next time she came to visit she thought she'd tell me about it because I'm interested in swords. I showed her my kaze and pointed out the real hamon to which she responded "mine has that" she neither understood nor cared that hers was faked and mine wasn't, but I didn't put it in those terms. in the end I felt like she had bought a cheap fake that wasn't worth owning and she felt like I had payed way too much for something that was no better than her $50 sword and I was just being a price snob. she is the customer the Ren Fair vendors see most often and to whom they market their goods. if they were to sell the real thing people like my mother in law would pass up their booth because they wouldn't see the swords as being worth the money. perceived value is what it's all about. sadly most people are satisfied with the cheap stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 18:01:04 GMT
I'd have to say the biggest reason is price. Most folks who go to renfairs are your average joes and teenagers. Teens often times aren't going to have the money to spend on good blades and average joes won't know the difference. But what really gets me is when I see someone carrying a brand new starfire "sword" they just bought for $3oo and thinking they got a deal. Kills me everytime. I noticed prices for the handmade swords at KCRF to be in the $350 and up price catagory, even though the quality was far below what $300-$450 will buy you from any of the reputable online places. So, if they can make a living selling those ugly hunks of iron for that knd of money, why would someone not be able to sell VA, Tinker, Gen2, etc. which are far nicer and often under $350? Heck, there are plenty of Hanwei & Windlass under $300.00. That's what this whole forum is about.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 27, 2009 18:06:37 GMT
hmmm good point, I don't see why not. I guess I might want to know if those businesses are really successful or if they are not making it? just because they arew there doesn't mean they are making good profit. I'm also sure the fair charges a pretty hefty rate to sell there that the merchant has to try and recoup. thus raising prices.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 18:34:16 GMT
hmmm good point, I don't see why not. I guess I might want to know if those businesses are really successful or if they are not making it? just because they arew there doesn't mean they are making good profit. I'm also sure the fair charges a pretty hefty rate to sell there that the merchant has to try and recoup. thus raising prices. I know that KCRF charges $800 for the entire season, and requires vendors to be open every weekend and have adequte merchandise. Smaller weekend renfaires charge considerably less. I'm sure major events may charge more. As a point, I think KCRF, for example, requires at least a significant part of a craft vendor's merchandise to be made by the vendor, and not just be resellers goods. KCRF has both, so not sure of the deciding criteria there. Wichita was wide open to craftsmen & resellers. My renfaire experience is limited, so I don't know merchant policies at other faires. Those policies could have some influence over who shows up - especially if they restrict resellers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 19:02:53 GMT
We have it a little different at the New York Ren Faire @ Tuxedo( last weekend was the last for this year).
We do have a Starfire vendor, but theirs are reasonably priced for stage combat. We also enjoy shopping at Capricorn and Mayhawke Armories.
Capricorn carries a few wallhangers but they also carries some Windlass and Baltimore Knife Co. blades.
Mayhawke carries some Hanwei and some Lutel.
Both vendors keep their prices within line for what you'd expect to pay from a vendor, meaning they are not trying to make a ridiculous profit.
Another plus is I havn't heard any silly claims from these vendors but that could be because I'm generally carrying Atrims.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 20:33:11 GMT
I think it's the demographic. Most renfaire goers aren't enthusiasts or really all that interested in getting a functional and practical sword. They are looking for the souvenir, for the most part, something that is able to capture the visit and associate with it.
Also, I'm not sure what the renfaire rules are about selling weapons. I've heard that they are strict about wearing weapons - swords have to be secured to the scabbards so they can't be drawn, no warhammers or maces, etc.... With rules like that I wonder just what kind of weapons they would permit to be sold. Possibly display pieces that can't be touched or sold, but something like a sample to order from the shop if you are really interested.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2009 20:51:53 GMT
ive been to a lot of ren fairs up and down the east coat here , and i agree why arent there any good vendors there? i also agree with statements above about average joe guy not knowing or careing and thinking 300$ is a lil much to hang on his wall. that said there are still a big portion of us "sword geeks" that also go. i think if a vendor went they need to have room for demo area and show people how to chop up watermelons or something.explain to them what they are payin for. ive seen it done with handmade longbows at the lanchaster PA one. that guy makes great bows, back then they way out priced any others but he had a range at his booth and i tell ya that was the best bow ive ever shot ;D all that said , come one sword CO guys we wanna see ya out next summer, say hi and what not ;D
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Sept 28, 2009 0:48:06 GMT
I'd have to say the biggest reason is price. Most folks who go to renfairs are your average joes and teenagers. Teens often times aren't going to have the money to spend on good blades and average joes won't know the difference. But what really gets me is when I see someone carrying a brand new starfire "sword" they just bought for $3oo and thinking they got a deal. Kills me everytime. I noticed prices for the handmade swords at KCRF to be in the $350 and up price catagory, even though the quality was far below what $300-$450 will buy you from any of the reputable online places. So, if they can make a living selling those ugly hunks of iron for that knd of money, why would someone not be able to sell VA, Tinker, Gen2, etc. which are far nicer and often under $350? Heck, there are plenty of Hanwei & Windlass under $300.00. That's what this whole forum is about. Perhaps you've found a gap in the market, might be worth looking into. You know, I kinda hate to admit this, but I sometimes get a kick out of letting a vendor give me his spiel on a sword or axe I know to be crap. I wait till he finished then tell him every wrong thing he said. They hate that. But the vendors that are upfront and honest with me, I can respect them. They sell crap and they know they sell crap.
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ecovolo
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Post by ecovolo on Sept 28, 2009 4:45:34 GMT
Down at the Irwindale Ren Fair in So Cal, Salamander Armoury sells weapons. Their website is here: www.atar.com/old/One of the few vendors selling worthwhile weaponry at a Ren Fair. --Edward
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 7:01:40 GMT
I can tell you about this from my prospective as a former vendor myself:
1. Faire rental rates are exceptionally high. In 2003/2004, a simple tent rental would cost you $2500 for the full 7 weeks of the North Carolina faire. Then, you were not supplied with a tent, you had to buy a period pavillion that had to be approved before setting it up. And even then, they determine your location, which is more than likely going to be in an area no one else wanted to be in because of low pedestrian traffic, mud, flies, mosquitos, or water problems.
2. To rent a hard booth, the rates are upwards of $5000 and you have to get on a waiting list to rent a building that has been vacated. Or, you might have to build your own structure (if the faire has room) to their standards- and they own it once you finish it. This can easily cost you $10,000. The greatest part is that after you build your booth, you are not guarenteed rental of it the following year. Booths are assigned due to 'faire seniority' in which you can literally be bumped out of the booth you built by another vendor.
3. All stock has to be approved by faire staff / other vendors before selling. This may not seem like a big deal, but if you are dealing with other sword vendors at the same faire that have seniority over you, they can determine what you can and cannot sell because you are on their turf so to speak. Sometimes this causes really big problems in what you can and cannot offer.
4. Theft is a constant problem in the confines of the faire community. You have to safeguard your own goods, making sure they are secured very well or taken home every evening. If you turn your back, you will be robbed blind by other faire gypsies. This is alot of my vendor friends number one complaint. Keep in mind, the people working the faire are in most cases the same caliber of person you find running the Tilt-A-Whirl at the annual Wal-Mart parking lot carnival in your home town. They are there to make a living any way they know how and will do anything to do so.
5. You are competing with alot of vendors selling cheap junk that literally prohibit you from making a profit. Your average weekend compulsive sword buyer wants the most bang for the buck and don't care about anything other than having a large SLO to hang across his back. He/she will always buy the cheap $74.99 William Wallace look-a-like special over your combat-ready, quality forged swords.
6. The Faire culture has established what is good or not in their little subculture. For example, if you have alot of friends that work faires, you will notice everyone that working there wants a pair of Son of Sandlar boots. Faire gypsies will sell blood plasma or their first born to get these glorified, non-authentic boots because all of their friends have them. How would selling a real, quality, authentic medieval boot go over? It would not, you would go broke trying and probably have your booth egged by Son of Sandlar in the middle of the night for walking on their turf. It's the same with swords. Do people want Albion, A&A, ATrim, or even Windlass or Valiant? No. They want an untempered, over-priced Starfire SLO (trust me, we have broke 3 of these) or a cheap pirate wallhanger with a vinyl sheath. Your product simply does not rate in their subculture, and they have very little interest in learning about new things.
7. The faire is not about weaponry. It's a roving tourist trap selling turkey legs, costumes, and putting on a show for the sheeple. 99% of people go there one weekend a year and have no interest in purchasing anything other than beer or occasionally renting a costume. In short, you don't sell alot - and would not make enough profit to pay the rent, much less pay trustworthy people to work for you.
8. You do not want to know what the Fairegrounds are like after hours. You will just have to trust me on this one.
Other peoples mileage may differ, so sorry if I offended. However, this is experience talking and these are the reasons that I found on why not to do faires. Many of the quality vendors I know have very similar thoughts on it. It's simply not worth the pain or effort...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 7:19:28 GMT
Ok, I want some stories from #8. Stories!
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 28, 2009 11:56:21 GMT
8. You do not want to know what the Fairegrounds are like after hours. You will just have to trust me on this one. Ok, I want some stories from #8. Stories! I gotta agree... my curiosity is certainly piqued!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 12:01:08 GMT
parteing with fair workers can be...... fun ;D and sometimes a eye opening experience ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 16:44:11 GMT
I noticed prices for the handmade swords at KCRF to be in the $350 and up price catagory, even though the quality was far below what $300-$450 will buy you from any of the reputable online places. So, if they can make a living selling those ugly hunks of iron for that knd of money, why would someone not be able to sell VA, Tinker, Gen2, etc. which are far nicer and often under $350? Heck, there are plenty of Hanwei & Windlass under $300.00. That's what this whole forum is about. Perhaps you've found a gap in the market, might be worth looking into. You know, I kinda hate to admit this, but I sometimes get a kick out of letting a vendor give me his spiel on a sword or axe I know to be crap. I wait till he finished then tell him every wrong thing he said. They hate that. But the vendors that are upfront and honest with me, I can respect them. They sell crap and they know they sell crap. Yea, is that wrong? Should I not feel vindicated in pointing the various wrong points out? They're highwaymen dressed like sheep, preying on the sheep. LOL Odingaard...do tell!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 21:48:40 GMT
Well, if it were just partying and drinking - there would be nothing wrong with it, would there? No, I am afraid there is a little more depth to the deviance. I'll give some examples... a. One of my longtime female friends was sitting on the steps of a booth one evening and a guy came up behind her and put his d*ck on her shoulder. When she pushed him away, he pissed all over her. b. A 15 year old girl at the NC Faire was given GHB, and once she was out of it, a few of the guys there took their liberties with her. She now has a bastard child and herpes. One of the guys, part of a large entertainment troupe, was arrested and charged - but the other guys, well, they are gypsies - who knows who they are.... c. A vendor I was friends with had his complete trailer stolen one evening. He lost about $30,000 worth of stuff. It turned up being sold by another vendor at the Michigan faire. This caused him to go out of business and the last time I spoke to him, he was still in debt because of it. d. 16 year old daughter of a long time friend decided she was in love with a 39 year old faire gypsy and ran away with him after they took nearly everything her parents owned one night. She has not been heard from since. e. The true meaning of the 'tails' you see that the faire: It was started by faire prostitutes. It took off like wildfire and the meaning was lost, but you still have to earn the tail at many faires by being a swinger - its a sort of a club. One tail means you are straight. Two means you are bi (in some cases - NOT ALL). Additionally the tails were used in medieval Europe to hide f*ck /sh*t stains on the clothing of prostitues and to attract fleas/crab lice. These have few meanings (no meaning at all to visitors/tourists), but afterhours in the faire community, you learn what it means to the gypsies. f. A kid at the Minnesota faire was given concentrated LSD in a drink at a faire afterparty which resulted in him running out into traffic and getting hit by a truck. g. If you are looking for a fight, go to the faire campground after hours. If you are not a faire carnie, you will get into a few of them. h. Someone I know very well caught the crabs in their younger and stupid days as a result of an afterhours faire party. Pretty awesome huh? I am a really well-traveled and open-minded guy that believes in having a good time, but some things cross the line in my book. The afterhours faire life is way too far removed from being cool to me. I prefer the company of a few close friends and people I know around a cosy autumn bonfire on my personal property where I don't have to worry about anyone getting donkey punched by geeked-up a pirate wannabe. ;D But, if you like hanging out with lazy, nasty, conartist sh*tbirds without a pot to piss in that want to screw your girl, rob you blind, and put illicit sh*t in your drink, then this party is for you!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2009 22:14:51 GMT
wow those are some bad stories, very glad to have not seen , (only herd) things such as this
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