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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 19, 2009 21:54:33 GMT
I, for one, caught Musical's Wayne's World reference. Ahem, Slayer.
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Sept 19, 2009 23:47:00 GMT
So the sword arrived at my door today and this thing is the highlight of my week. So most of what I've done so far is take it out of the box and admire it. It's my first sword purchase and I'm new to all this, so I may be over-excited. Your probably not anymore excited than the rest of us still get even though some of us have been buying and receiving swords for years. It's part of the joy of this hobby so enjoy it each and every time! Tom was probably real excited too and it wasn't even his sword.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 20, 2009 0:11:49 GMT
I, for one, caught Musical's Wayne's World reference. Ahem, Slayer. Indeed... "She's a Babe! Schwing!"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2009 0:24:30 GMT
Okay, some more thoughts after another day. For all the references to Tom's sharpening skills let me tell you something, this sword scares me a little. Let me start by saying that I think this is an elegant blade, and it looks to me that it will serve the purpose it is intended for admirably. And if there's one thing it doesn't leave in doubt, it's what that purpose is. There is nothing showy or flashy about this sword. It is exactly what I was looking for in my first purchase. So I own two Japanese officer blades, and one thing that becomes immediately apparent when I compare the bastard to both of them, besides the obvious of 2 edges vs 1, is that you can see that the swords are designed for different people. I'm 5'6" tall, and this sword is perhaps a little too long for me. It is significantly longer than the Japanese blades I own, and those are extremely comfortable in my hands. The dimensions of the blades say a lot about the typical type of person they were designed for. The katana I own are designed for a smaller person than the bastard sword is, which is not surprising when you think about the size difference between the average Japanese male and the average European male. This could apply as equally to females, but the comparison with males is more apt, I think, given the age of swords. The methods of how to use the bastard sword are different as well. This is probably obvious to most of you, but it is a poignant one for me, and while I knew it intellectually it is one I didn't appreciate until I got this sword. With the slight curve of the katana, it is almost inevitable that any stroke you make with the sword will slash. That curvature allows the blade to essentially stroke, or slice, through what it is cutting. I only raise this point to contrast it to how the shape of this blade attacks. It cuts in the traditional sense of the idea. Perhaps it is just my lack of technique, but there is much less edge which contacts the surface in the cut of the bastard sword than I believe there is with the katana. For me, it makes the bastard sword a more difficult weapon to use, and not just because of its length. So the differences between these two styles of sword make me that much more pleased with the purchase than if I had gone with an eastern style of blade. I'm glad that it is a good historical replica, too, for it helps to give me some good perspective with regards to the writing I do. So the biggest thing I've noticed is the scabbard. From the messages I traded with Tom while he worked on it I think he did a terrific job smoothing things out so that the blade does not scrape against the throat and dull itself from continuous drawings. I love the fact that the scabbard, with the metal throat and point and black leather, fits nicely with the simple appearance of the sword itself. So I have noticed that I do need to be careful when holding it in that if the angle of the pommel begins lean towards the ground the blade will slide out of it. This is in sharp contrast to the scabbards of the two other swords I have. They actually have a button worked into the hilt which engages a clip that locks the blade in. Unless you know about that button it is not readily apparent that it is there to press. I don't know if that is usual or not. The looseness of the scabbard is not an issue for me as I intend to hang the sword on the wall point down and unsheathed. When kids and friends come over for parties I'll take it down and put it away in the closet for safety's sake, but since I don't throw a lot of big parties that's no big deal. This is definitely not a toy, and needs to be treated with the respect it deserves. That's something that most people don't recognize about swords, I think. A sword is, first and foremost, a weapon, and as such it demands respect. I am actually more nervous around blades than I am around guns because there is no safety and they can't be unloaded of ammunition. So after a day and a half I will say I am enjoying this blade more and more, and my respect for it is growing for it as well. Reading about them and looking at pictures does little justice to these, I think.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 20, 2009 1:37:45 GMT
great to hear you are enjoying it Kokoro. the blade used to catch in the throat but it was catching on the edge so in order to make the scabbard not damage the blade I had to sacrifice the fact that the blade would catch. obviously it would have been preferable to have it catch and NOT damage the blade but the design would not allow that and frankly I think it's better to not catch and not damage the blade. I hope you agree.
as for the cutting, I cut with both katana and European swords and you are right the the curve of the katana makes a slicing motion all by itself. if you were to float a camera above your target looking right down on top of the target (let's assume it's a roll of tatami just for arguement's sake) that roll of tatami would look kinda like a circle like this: O your bent katana blade can be represented by this: ) or ( it's a little exaggeration as that would be some wild sori but it's what the keyboard has. so from above you would have this still-frame right before the cut: )O you can see how the natural arc of swinging your arms would do two things: 1 drag the edge along the target in a slicing motion, and 2 cause the target to cross the blade at about a 45 degree angle like this: \ (the above example would be more than 45 due to wild sori but you get the idea I hope) imagine the sword blade to be a hill where the edge is the bottom and the spine is the top (yes I know the sword is a wedge mechanically speaking bear with me I'll explain) the angle of the primary bevel is the steepness of the hill. if your hill is 10 feet high and ten feet wide it rises 10 feet in a ten foot run. so 1 foot forward = 1 foot up if you are traveling perpendicular to the hill. however, if you travel at a 45 degree angle (or indeed any angle greater or lesser than 90) you will be traveling farther forward per foot of rise thereby making the hill feel less steep and making the climb easier. this is exactly the sort of resistance your sword meets in spreading the target around its blade. if the target travels accross the blade at a 90 degree angle the hill (niku/bevel) of the blade feels much steeper than if it were to travel at a different angle this effects how hard the cut is by trasfering more or less energy to the target. the greater a distance your target travels down the length of the blade as the blade goes through the slighter the angle, the less steep the hill, the less energy expended to spread the target, and the smoother the cut. this is why competition geometry katana are wide and thin. now a straight sword does not automatically impart this angle of target to blade that a bent blade tends to do when swung naturally causing people to think that bent blades cut better and that one must apply more draw to a straight blade. this statement is both true and false (or at least misleading) the thing is when you swing a European blade naturally you tend to have the blade approach the target like this: lO what you need to do is hold the sword so that it meets the target more like this: \O or this /O with the first one you will end up pulling a little naturally with the second it will become a push. there's no need to make exaggerated yanking motions with your arms as that will severly mess with your effective range and put you at a distinct disadvantage. if the straight sword is used as above it will cut with the same effectiveness as a bent blade you just have to know what you are doing.
to any one who is still with me bless you, I hope this made sense. this is one of the most misunderstood points of using European or any straight sword and the reason so many Japanese sword fans have so much trouble cutting with that hollywood straight ninjato that they get eventually (if not right away) while us Euro guys can pick up the ninjato and cut nicely with it. we Euro sword guys tend to do this without even thinking about it. it is also the reason that any society whose swordsmanship relied primarily on the cut sooner or later developed curved bladed swords like sabres, katana, scimitar, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2009 1:53:39 GMT
I build my cutting stands and took a swing at a waterbottle today with my 304S. It went straight through on the first cut.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 20, 2009 2:02:25 GMT
Thats a good explanation Tom... and it elaborates on what we were talking about the other day.
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 20, 2009 2:03:36 GMT
I build my cutting stands and took a swing at a waterbottle today with my 304S. It went straight through on the first cut. Congrats, Jonathan. We need video.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 20, 2009 2:07:59 GMT
What, NO VIDEO?!
GET A ROPE!
I want to see Jonathan cut!
Sean, yeah I've been thinking about it since then and I finally think I figured out how to best describe it in words. at least this is my best attempt yet.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2009 2:53:22 GMT
That's a great explanation, Tom. It also puts it in better perspective for me in understanding why so many of the cuts I see in the vids were done at an angle and not straight on. Also, I agree with you on the scabbard, I'd much rather lose the catch than have it scrape the edge any day. The cuts I was doing were pretty much straight on, going for a perpendicular cut to the plane. Doing the |O and not a \O, if you'll permit me to make use of your graphics. Personally, it seems simpler to make the perpendicular cut than to do it angled. It seems like there it is less likely for the blade to slip on the surface, but you're right, you don't get that slicing motion without the angle. Jonathan: congrats on your first cut. It feels good doesn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2009 13:07:57 GMT
I have the cut on video, but since it is three seconds long I am going to wait until I do more cutting to post a video. I don't want to go off-topic in this review thread though, so anyone who wants to discuss it can do so in my thread in the European sword section.
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Post by musicalpoo on Sept 20, 2009 17:36:16 GMT
I, for one, caught Musical's Wayne's World reference. Ahem, Slayer. thanks Kid, I can always rely on you to catch my old movie and or dirty jokes
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 20, 2009 19:07:46 GMT
LOL yeah I was thinking of exactly that when I named the first video but I wasn't intending to reference it. I knew somebody would pick it up though and as usual you guys do not dissapoint.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2009 10:51:00 GMT
My comment wasn't aimed at Tom at all, I to prefer an extremely scarily sharp sword. I was making comment about the many people who blame their swords for their lack of ability when they should be blaming themselves. Tom is great at what he does and I will be the first one to defend his ability and knowledge, so to clarify no, I wasn't talking about Tom. I've just seen a rash of complaints on this forum over the years and many people don't stop to think that maybe the mechanics of using a sword is not picking it up and "having at" and I wanted to clarify that often a sword is perfectly sharp (not scarily because sword companies don't want people injuring themselves, often to do with liability).
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 21, 2009 17:58:12 GMT
I totally agree that there is more to it than just "having at it" I wasn't really worried about the idea that maybe BW was referencing me, but I did want to address the idea that sharp isn't everything thus my earlier post. I find a lot of people, even more experienced cutters miss the difference between cutting with a straight sword vs cutting with a katana. you CAN take Euro skills to a katana and you can take JSA skills to a longsword but in both cases you will be limiting yourself and missing certain subtleties of the blade and its use. I openly admit that I have crossed Euro/straight sword skills into katana use (but I have had some tiny bit of training with katana which helps) and I know I am missing some of the subtleties of the katana because of it and my minimal amount of training. I don't have the katana centric skills to cross JSA into European / straight swords but I know people who have and you can tell by watching them they are using that longsword like a katana and it looks funny. I'm sure the JSA guys say the same about my katana use.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2009 18:17:14 GMT
No comment on the grounds that I might incriminate myself . In all seriousness having been primarily a JSA guy switching over to longsword and also re-enactment was one of the strangest experiences of my life. Honestly I don't think you can effectively cross the techniques of the two styles because of the sword types. At the moment I am studying Stephen Hand and I have to say that going from two handed JSA to single handed "time of" is the strangest feeling. Many of Hand's plays (based on study of Silver) don't move at all, only the hand moves, which coming from a JSA point of view where my strikes are with a step or after a step, to attack in time of hand is so much faster but still feels awkward and you really have to know your distancing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2009 17:26:47 GMT
I liked your video about the sword making the "schwing" noise as it's pulled from the scabbard ;D Medieval European swords are my favorites, thank you for this review on the bastard!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2009 0:00:00 GMT
Its a lil' bastard isnt it
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 23, 2009 3:49:36 GMT
well it sure isn't a sneaky little bastard.
SchaWING!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 16:17:43 GMT
Yep- the angle of the cut changes the effective geometry of the blade; over at SFI there's an article that I wrote years ago about cutting with swords that includes an illustration that shows this.
Does this mean that Japanese swords are superior to European ones? No- that's like asking if an axe is better than a machete without specifying what the tool will be used for.
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