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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 17, 2009 9:00:42 GMT
I thought I was being upbeat and positive. ;D Hah! I don't know if the kid or kids were justified or not, the authorities will sort that out. It does seem apparent that the burglar would still be alive if he hadn't burgled one time too many. Hell, we all gotta go, I'll save my tears for someone more deserving. Don't misunderstand me, I was not trying to chide you for not showing sympathy... I was just surprised at the joke, is all.
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 17, 2009 9:07:04 GMT
Yeah, I get you, Sean. Actually I held off on making that joke for almost a whole day.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 17, 2009 9:10:30 GMT
Yeah, I get you, Sean. Actually I held off on making that joke for almost a whole day. Impressive restraint...
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Sept 17, 2009 9:47:06 GMT
I think that those of us that have actually been in a situation where you or your loved ones have been threatened may have a very different perspective on this event. Those of us who have consistently been in such situations may have an even more interesting perspective. For those of you that have never been in such a situation I am glad. I hope you have taken steps to prepare yourself in case it does. We can speculate on what this intruder might have done if given the opportunity, but luckily the VICTIM survived and didn't give the intruder a chance to hurt/kill him or not. The intruder went looking for trouble and he found it. It was his chance to take and he subjected his victim to the outcome. This intruder may have been a victim as well, to society or an abusive parent or whatever, but he should not be cast as a victim in this situation. If a guy breaks into my house is it my fault because I didn't go to enough effort to make it incapable of being broken into? If a guy breaks in and gets hurt or killed, is it my fault because I have a gun/blade and was prepared to use it. Blanket bans and laws should be avoided and we should have enough fortitude to deal with such circumstances on a case by case basis. If I am a menace with a sword I should be dealt with, not the sword. If I am being victimized and defend against an aggressor with a sword the issue is the aggressor, not the sword. I think that all of us that are able have a responsibility to protect ourselves and those who need and deserve our protection. Those that deserve our protection are those that make the choice to be a part of our society and try to follow our laws and expectations as agreed upon by the whole. Intentional actions clearly outside of this ideal should forfeit the rights of the one taking such actions.............on a case by case basis. If this were more closely followed, then crime would be lessened and reform would be more successful.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 14:12:36 GMT
Dogs are a good idea... as are exterior lights or even motion sensor lights. I have neither of these. I have had 3 occasions where my dogs did my defending for me, and 3 more, as I mentioned before, where my dogs did someone else's defending. The first 2 were people trying to come in when I was still living with my folks and we had chows. The first time, we had just gotten our first chow, she was less than 6 months old, and she tried to go through a picture window to get the guy. The second, he was coming over the 7 foot wall in the back yard and she just barely missed "helping" him over (security camera showed her miss his ankle by about an inch). The 3rd time, was a guy coming into My house just 2 years ago. He opened the door, the dogs went off, the door slammed. He must have been quite skilled and/or experienced because the dogs didn't even know he was there until the door opened. My point: Get a dog (or 2 or 3 or 4...). Best home defense tool out there.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 14:23:58 GMT
Yea, cuz bears don't like wolves, Sean.
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Marc Ridgeway
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"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 17, 2009 17:35:58 GMT
Look... I have to agree with Shadowhowler.
Nighttime creepers area whole different class of criminals, and usually have intent a bit more malicious than taking your silverware.
I have a bit of a reputation in my area... the conduct that made this reputation is long gone, but the reputation was well earned... and as such, not many thieves are going to break into my house if they know it is my house... its not a winning proposition, a coyote doesnt try to steal meat from a wolf... not unless desperate, and desperation is dangerous.
Of course because of that past of mine, I do have enemies out there.... and if they come creeping in the night, theft is not on their minds... and they WILL be met with force... something of the boomstick variety...
On top of that , my girl has an insane ex out there somewhere... one that has already done time for hurting her... and would love to hurt her again , I am sure... if he shows up he will be met with force.
Then there is the possibility of a creepy guy who may have seen the female of the residence, and not the male, and think she lives alone... or think the male is out... someone like that come creeping around... and they will be met with force.
Shadowhowler is correct... most property crime occurs when burglars are sure noone is home... and they often painstakingly case a house so they are sure when noone is home... someone comes skulking around when I am home... I assume he isnt after my PS3 and I am proactive in meeting him with force.
Maybe I am paranoid... when I hear noises , I check them out... when I come home, I clear my house... I have surviellence cameras, amd I have telltale signs that let me know if doors have been opened , etc.
Paranoid it may be... but live the life I've lived in the places I've lived it, and telll me if these precautions are overboard. Live in Cabbagetown, Reynoldstown, Little 5, East Atlanta, Lakewood, East Point , Forest Park. Attend the funereals of friends and the trials of their killers... or worse yet , the killers that are never found. Live with a beautiful woman that has an exx that once slit her throat and left her for dead... and even without that ex, beautiful women draw creeps like flies anyway.
I have enemies from my past, and I have a family to protect, and I'll tell you, come sneaking around my property and you wont like the reception you get... thats just the plain ugly truth.
I will do what it takes to defend myself and my family from ANY threat... and anyone brazen enough to creep about my property while I'm home is assumed to have worse intentions than swiping a VCR... and I wont bother to ask first either.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, or if it seems I dont value life... I value life fine... but I value the lives of my family far more than I value the life of a trespasser.
If some dude gets shot full of holes on my property and it turns out he was only there to steal my rims, will I feel bad? Nah... but I'll feel like he made a damn stupid choice that cost him his life for nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 17:53:54 GMT
I see nothing wrong with that, Marc. What I can't understand is the mindset that we should behave like sheep, run and hide at the first sign of trouble, call 911 if you hear a strange noise- God forbid you defend yourself and the robber gets hurt- he can sue YOU for damages.
Kinda makes the argument to kill them rather than just injure them. Less trouble in the long run that way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 18:21:43 GMT
Kill them rather than injure them, I think that sums up quite a bit here. This thread has brought out a lot of intense reactions. Society is so busy protecting everyones rights that no one has any. We have too many sheep wanting someone else to protect them and not enough dogs willing to protect their own. I am glad to see so many here with the mentality that it is 'their' responsibility to protect themselves and their loved ones rather than the cops. But I think one of the underlying tones here is that we are all feeling like that right is being stripped away by the sheep. I know in Australia and Britain it has already happened, tho I admit I have not kept abreast of any details other than what I've read here.
Here's some food for thought.
About ten years ago I took a criminal justice course in Arizona taught by a sitting judge. He proposed this situation: Two armed men break into your house at night. You shoot and kill one of them. The other shoots and kills you. The second was protecting the life of his vermin comrade and killing you was therefore a justifiable homicide. Hows that for f.....d up?!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 18:44:10 GMT
LMAO @ THAT
But you're right, shoboshi...our justice system's sense of right and wrong is horribly skewed. What it should be is: two armed men broke into your house that night; you shot and killed one and the other shoots you. The one that shot you gets the chair. 'Nuff said.
Not that it bears explaining, but the situation is the key- neither man would've gotten shot if they hadn't trespassed in the first place. How they can still call that 'law' and practice it is beyond me.
Like the robber who cut himself exiting the premises...I hope he did time for doing it in the first place, the damned idiot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 19:13:33 GMT
Yeah. The future looks pretty gloomy.
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Post by sparky on Sept 17, 2009 19:30:23 GMT
Even if there were four people that confronted the robber, why is it there responsibility to make sure that he is armed or not before they use force to meet his threat. If he had a gun then we may be talking about a different news story, one where he's alive and the four are dead.This happens all to often in todays world. My opinion is if you cross my threshold you are a threat to me and my family. I'm not going to take the time to make sure I use appropriate force by determining if you are armed or not. In coming into my home uninvited and unannounced you are a threat to me period. It's whomevers choice, stay out or "say hello to my little friend". I also agree with everyone who says get a dog, they know what's going on even if I'm zoning. Now I agree with Shadow, if I hear something and the dogs let me know something ain't right I would rather confront the problem outside than inside where my wife and kids are. Also even though I can use lethal force out side of the home, I would probably be slower to shoot than inside of the home. Only because there is a lager safety zone for my family. I hope no one gets the idea that I "just want to kill someone", because I don't. I do think all life has value and I'll be happy to goto my grave without ever having to take a life. And my hat is off to all who have posted for keeping it civil, at least it seems that way to me. I appreciate all of the different points of view, even if I disagree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 20:49:36 GMT
This is all hilarious to me... Talking about training, and abilities, and being aggressive. How many times have threads like this turned into macho chest-pounding testosterone fests. "Yeah, i'd blow the guys head off man!" Everybody is an internet hero huh?
A few people here i am sure have the balls to back up the actions they claim they would take, (and you can usually tell who is full of semprini). But this is real life, not a video game, not a movie, and there is no reset button.
You run into people all your life that are "certified bad asses" (at least they think they are) and they always make ridiculous claims of their "super abilities" like they are friggin Navy Seals or something. Always talking a tough game, "i'd kick his ass", "i'd kick that other guys ass", "i'd blow that guy away", "i'd mess that dude up", ect. ect. ect.
Then when the semprini gets REAL, and fists start flying, or bullets start flying, or whatever... They freeze up... or, run... And the guy who has been trying to convince everyone how much of a "bad ass" he was, suddenly gets a dose of reality...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 20:52:09 GMT
Since the guy "only" lost his hand, and probably died due to massive loss of blood - which must have been traumatice to all concerned, I wonder if the kid is going to answer for letting him bleed out like that.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 17, 2009 21:26:48 GMT
I wonder about his wounds, too. Is there an autopsy available yet? I'd like to have a look. I doubt one could bleed to death from almost losing a hand...but with blood doing what it does in these cases, one never knows... Either way, what concerns me most is the "slash" in his chest. Where? How deep? What angle? Did we get the heart? Lungs? Pancreas, liver, what? Don't give me any "just a flesh wound" nonsense, either, you'd better be hurt if you're just going to sit there and bleed. /me flex e-muscles, pass gas loudly
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 21:27:13 GMT
One thing about living where I live is that you have the right to use deadly force to defend your self and your family from bodily harm, and a home intruder is automatically presumed to be intent on doing bodily harm. Kill them on your front porch or in your yard- bad for you. Let them step across the threshold first - bad for them. I remember a local sheriff advising my dad to "drag him inside before you call us" if he ever shot an intruder. LOL heard the same thing about Texas too. I don't get countries/states that give you a hard time in defending yourself. I'm sorry, I'm a pacafist, but I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my family. Property is not really worth risking getting injurred or killed yourself, but injury or death of myself and my family, oh you bet ya. Providing the scene happened as described in the article, I surely hope the kid doesn't charge with anything.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 22:12:15 GMT
I doubt one could bleed to death from almost losing a hand...but with blood doing what it does in these cases, one never knows... Either way, what concerns me most is the "slash" in his chest. Uh, I dunno know about that first bit. My roommate is getting his EMT license and his professor told them that people can bleed out and die from a lot smaller wounds than you might think if they don't get immediate medical attention. If you have any laceration deeper than the dermis, you could be in some serious crap--exposed vessels, even fairly small ones, won't clot up due to the blood flow if you don't apply pressure to close them. Considering this guy's hand was "hanging by a thread" according to the police spokesperson, I'm bankin' that that's what did him in.
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 17, 2009 22:25:34 GMT
Hence why I said "I doubt" and followed it up with a disclaimer.
The removal of a hand has long been used in many places as a punitive action, but I don't recall many cases where the guy bled to death over it. "I doubt" they received the best medical attention afterwards, either.
Too many important details are being deemed unnecessary to the public's knowledge of the incident. "I doubt" we'll ever get a full report on the circumstances.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 22:48:26 GMT
Yeah, big tough man with a sword and 3 of his buddies are gonna go teach the bad guys a lesson. Real courageous when you outnumber your opponent and out arm him too. If they wanted to send a message of "we're not gonna take it" a baseball bat and some broken ribs would have spread that message just fine. SEALS are HIGHLY trained individuals that are capable of making life and death assessments without hesitation. They are not 20 year old boys with swords. ... Well, some might be 20... and some might have swords, but you get what I'm saying here. no one was wanting to send the message holmes... the guy heard a noise, grabbed what protection he had, and when he was attacked, reacted... he could not have known if the thief was going to pull a gun or a knife out of his pocket and by no means he should have waited to find out. If there were 100 people in that house and the guy found the man in his garage he should have reacted the same way, saying he should have risked his life because there were other people who could have taken over in case he was "injured" (given the fact the thief did push the guy into the wall) is simply illogical. Bottom line, someone comes into someone's house, they should be ready to meet resistance, and should they lay a hand of them, they should be ready to meat deadly force... it's called personal defense... I get what you are saying about the SEALS, but my point is, because such well trained professionals who usually work behind enemy lines are told to shoot at will (therefore blowing their cover) whenever they feel endangered, then the same should be true for civilians, as long as the person they are confronting is causing them to believe they are an immediate threat to the person. If you find someone you have never seen before in your home and they push you against the wall, chances are, they aren't exactly asking you for directions to the next church mate and you gotta do what you gotta do. The kid panicked, I will give you that, and from the way he was cut the ME said he did not have much martial arts training, if I were in his place I would have wanted to turn him in to the police, but don't get me wrong, that guy made one false mood and i would have gone through his neck without one moment of hesitation.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 17, 2009 23:12:07 GMT
My point: Get a dog (or 2 or 3 or 4...). Best home defense tool out there. I agree 100%. My father raises Wolf Hybrid dogs... they hear something going on LONG before we do... and they are VERY capable of dealing with it as well. Chows are SO pretty... but they have a temper, and are very territorial... which makes em near perfect as home defenders, I imagine. My wife wants a dog... and I would love to have one of my Fathers Wolf Hybrids... but we need a bigger place with more space, and we currently have two cats.
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