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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 23:56:57 GMT
I hear strange noises outside my home, and other homes I have lived in throughout my life... and yes, I DO grab a weapon (if one is available) and go outside to see what it is/confront what it is. If I just waited for whatever is going on to go away or come inside my home, I lose the initiative and may end up facing a gun, knife, who knows what on their terms not mine. Wow,... That's just a little paranoid Lose the initiative? Well, you already take the initiative when you secure the home & phone for backup. For a thief to be able to harm you they will first need to get in the house. If you go out, you not only weaken your defensive posture, but (should something happen to you) leave your family alone to fend for themselves. I don't call 911 every time I hear a nose, because I'll not be the little boy who cried wolf. Police have a lot of things to do, and they have a memory as well. If I call the cops a bunch of times for a cat or a dog or (in one case a year ago, a Bear... more on that later. ) then they will remember all that waisted time, and might not respond quickly when I do need them. If I'm alone... and I hear a noise... I grab a weapon and I circle around the opposite side of where I heard the noise and try to sneak up on it... I'm surprisingly stealthy for a fat guy, my father taught me how. Your arguing a point that i never made? Did i say "call the police every time you hear a noise"? I believe i said: "If i were to see a prowler outside my home" Obviously it would be silly to call the police every time you heard a noise. Its also a tad silly to "go commando" every time you hear a noise as well. That's paranoia if you ask me... When i lived in the inner city years ago Chicago had (at the time) the highest murder rate in the country. And even we were not that paranoid... I have had my share of violent encounters, so I feel capable enough to carry out these actions... different people, with different experiences, might be better served following a different course. I've been in a couple gun fights in my formative years, associating with shady people, drive-by's and the like. The times when we didn't see it coming were always the worst. But when we could see what was about to happen, and get ourselves into a defensive position it wasn't so bad... If you see a prowler coming you are already at an advantage. Running out after the guy negates that. I can't help but think that I could easily be put in the same spot as this kid was... (Depending on what version of the report we go with, more on that later also.) and be forced into a violent conflict with an intruder. I'm NOT going to wait for him to get into my home tho... if he is on my property THINKING about getting in my home... and my alertness gives me warning to this, I'm going to size the initiative and take it to him. Well,... from what we are hearing now, it seems he (and THREE of his friends) took quite an initiative. I'm not going to call 911 every time I hear a noise... some of the responsibility for defending my life, my loved ones and my property has to be mine. Again, never said you should... I remember a story too,... Where are man noticed a shadow of a person passing by his back window. And considering a neighbors house was robbed only a day before, the homeowner came out his backdoor blasting. He shot and killed a 23 year old ComEd utility worker, who was doing his rounds taking meter readings. When they quoted the man later he too said "i was taking the initiative to defend my life"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 0:58:48 GMT
Four young men huh? Wow! Ya know, if I was a burglar, heck anybody, I would not lunge at a group of young healthy men where one of them is armed with one of historys most deadly(and elegant) arms. Something does not smell right. I would like to see how this ends.
James gave a good example [glow=red,2,300]I remember a story too,... Where are man noticed a shadow of a person passing by his back window. And considering a neighbors house was robbed only a day before, the homeowner came out his backdoor blasting. He shot and killed a 23 year old ComEd utility worker, who was doing his rounds taking meter readings.
When they quoted the man later he too said "i was taking the initiative to defend my life"[/glow]
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 1:08:05 GMT
That sucks, here in australia he would have the book thrown at him heavilly, even if the burglar was armed and repeat offender, in australia unless the guy is armed with a gun or explosives you virtually cant touch him. Mate, you just hit one of my pet peeve issues, namely knee-jerk criticisms of the Australian legal system being too soft on criminals and people not being able to defend themselves. You may remember that highly publicised case about 6-7 years ago where that old age pensioner shot and killed two unarmed, teenaged (14 and 15 if I recall) intruders and was not even prosecuted. Now, while I am not privy to the facts of the case and despite the media sympathy to him, that particular incident seemed pretty suspect to me – I would have liked to see that case before a jury, even if he was summarily acquitted. Nevertheless, the attention brought to that incident actually resulted in an amendment (or to be more precise, clarification) of the legislation in question (at least in SA), to wit, the Criminal Law Consolidation (Self Defence) Amendment Act 2003 allows householders to use "whatever force they deem necessary" when confronted with a home invader. Householders who kill or injure a home invader escape prosecution provided they can prove they had a genuine belief that it was necessary to do so to protect themselves or their family. For that matter, even if the amount of force you use is, in fact, by an objective standard completely excessive (e.g. cutting an unarmed dude in half with 3 feet of razor sharp steel), it can still reduce the charge/sentence. You should check your State law for specifics, as some differ from others, but I know for example that my applicable State law - Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1935 (SA) as it relates to murder reads (emphasis mine): 2) It is a partial defence to a charge of murder (reducing the offence to manslaughter) if: a) the defendant genuinely believed the conduct to which the charge relates to be necessary and reasonable for a defensive purpose; but b) the conduct was not, in the circumstances as the defendant genuinely believed them to be, reasonably proportionate to the threat that the defendant genuinely believed to exist. 3) For the purposes of this section, a person acts for a defensive purpose if the person acts: a) in self defence or in defence of another; or b) to prevent or terminate the unlawful imprisonment of himself, herself or another. The partial defence includes circumstances where the accused had applied excessive force in killing the deceased but had genuinely believed the force to be necessary and reasonable: i. to protect property from unlawful appropriation, destruction, damage or interference; or ii. to prevent criminal trespass to land or premises, or to remove from land or premises a person who is committing a criminal trespass; or iii. to make or assist in the lawful arrest of an offender or alleged offender or a person who is unlawfully at large; and the defendant did not intend to cause death In fact, our law is in many ways a lot more lenient than many US State self defence laws (see other posts in this thread). Admittedly, despite our underserved reputation for being more ‘stuck up’ (read: ‘cultured’ ) than the rest of Australia, we do have the most lenient laws in the country in this regard and this may not be the case in Queensland - but check your local legislation before making blanket statements. [/soapbox] Why do I make sure I know this stuff? Because I know I am likely to respond to an intruder with threats, that will be backed up by force if he moves on me. I like to know what I’m getting myself into and I know which criminal attorney I’ll be calling if I need to do so (which hopefully will never happen). As far as this specific case goes, particularly if the intruder was unarmed, I’d expect him to see a courtroom – and rightly so, just as I’d expect to if I were in that position (and chances are, I would be). Edit: I will add, I would expect an acquital, but that's a jury's call. Edit 2: Have now read that there were four of them. He is now officially a moron and while I do sympathise for the possible mental anguish he may go through (just because you would, don't assume others will), that sounds like a clear-cut case of manslughter at a minimum.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 1:14:19 GMT
I would like to see the news story reporting that shooting of the utility worker being killed. I have another great story. One that happened recently (year and a half ago?) in Texas. A man called 911 to report 2 men breaking into his neighbor's house. The 911 operator told the man to stay on the phone. The man told her no, he was going to deal with them before they got away. The operator firmly told the man not to do that but he had already put the phone down. On the 911 tapes you can hear the man shouting for the burglars to stop several times followed by two gun shots. He shot and killed both the thieves. Last I heard there were no charges against the man and none were seriously considered. Apparently (and correct me if I misremember what the news reported or that the media was wrong [gasp!]) it is perfectly legal to shoot someone trespassing on your property. Just a story I felt related to the topic on hand. edited: I found a link. abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=5538780
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 1:17:25 GMT
Swords are much more succeptable to banning BECAUSE they are primarily a weapon, and any other use is improvised. You mean all this time I've been trimming my landscaping with a WEAPON!? Oh man... I'm lucky no cop has ever walked past my yard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 1:27:38 GMT
Your a good guy Ric, one of our best . Yeah I've spent 30mins writing about my constant robberies, holdups (2 on me assaulted once, 5 on my dad assaulted for 3). But deleted it will likely bore and be of little use. Fact is I've been on the end assaulted, with a weapon (well pathetic grimy razors and metal bars I suppose will kill me), days go by I wish I had pepper spray for the bastard in my shop but the law doesnt allow that. As you stand there, abit scared, and later very angry at your impotence due to the law saying you cant do a thing issues like this annoy me. So when this happens it sucks thief dying, shame his life led him to this end, pity he didnt just loose a hand, like I said on page 1, this was avoided by simply by him ...... not crossing that door....... , he needed nothing else to keep his life that night. I've known this mentality for 15 years with compulsive gamblers, they keep going and pushing the odds and its all fun and games until they cant buy food or nappies. When all they had to do was at the start ...... hell any point ........ not walk into my store........ Everyone has a choice .......... some people dont feel they need to make right ones. okay cue bleeding hearts on people that have tougher lives then others ........ woe the poor masses ........ yeah ..... true ........ does that mean their choiceless in their actions, its a no brainer not to hurt, not to steal, lifes total no brainers for not getting in trouble, doesnt matter your faith its a basic social principle.......... my parents gutted out a good life for me not by money but by ethics, morals, manners, discipline and love ......... things that cost nothing, and I pay my parents back by doing the same with my family. How you feel never defines your character but the actions of your past and the betterment of your future. Oh and if you need educating find the suburb with the worst reputation in your area and I mean the worst, take a part-time job in a liquor or convenience store there for a year, you will learn about the masses.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 1:41:53 GMT
I couldn't have said it much better myself, Brissybeater.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 1:44:51 GMT
Fact is I've been on the end assaulted, with a weapon (well pathetic grimy razors and metal bars I suppose will kill me), days go by I wish I had pepper spray for the bastard in my shop but the law doesnt allow that. As you stand there, abit scared, and later very angry at your impotence due to the law saying you cant do a thing issues like this annoy me. As have I (very stoned sixteen year olds are no match for guys straight out of max security with a switchblade who have locked themselves in your apartment with you - out the window for us) and as I have stated I personally respond to unidentified noises by arming up (in fact as demonstrated last week my instincts have me out of bed and an ATrim TacKat in my hand within seconds of a noise and before I am conscious enough not to slam into the dresser, which could get me hurt one day, but that's another matter). But just because I am ready and willing to kill someone I find in my house as a first reaction doesn't mean that it's justified. There's such a thing as due force.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 17, 2009 1:48:11 GMT
Swords are much more succeptable to banning BECAUSE they are primarily a weapon, and any other use is improvised. You mean all this time I've been trimming my landscaping with a WEAPON!? Oh man... I'm lucky no cop has ever walked past my yard.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 2:14:46 GMT
Queenslands pretty much the same as south australia, they keep things in perspective of due force. Cut an unarmed man, your stuffed, kill him, really stuffed, cut an armed man get off, kill armed, maybe get off ........ but I do think they like you to take a knife to a gun fight ........ oh and dont be alone in the house it was your family you were worried for ......
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 2:42:02 GMT
Er...what? That's not what I said at all.
From a quick glance (didn't look up the relevant Qld law in question). It looks like while in SA homeowners can use "whatever force they deem necessary", Queenslanders are held to the higher standard of both belief that the force was necessary and are held to an objective standard of what is 'reasonable'.
But it really sounds like you're just working from hearsay rather than actual legal research or advice about the relevant State legislation/case law (however perfunctory). I'd suggest you do so (forewarned is forewarmed). Also note that while police generally know more than Joe Citizen, unless they're a police prosecutor don't just take their word for it.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 17, 2009 2:51:20 GMT
Jim: I was not trying to pick at you, just using your 'clips' to address how I deal with the situation. I hope we are having friendly debate and that I have not got you heated. In the spirit of further debate... I realize my actions could seem paranoid to you or others, and I'm OK with that. I've had different experiences from most people that have made me cautious. Dispite popular belife... most break-ins take place during that broad daylight, while people are at work. Burglars prefer to hit a house thats empty, its a lot easier to take stuff that way. They only tend to hit homes at night if they believe the people are away. So, when I hear something that might be someone prowling around my house at night, when my lights are and my house appears lived in... I grow concerned. It could be nothing... or if could be a more stupid/desperate class of criminal... one on drugs or one who just doesn't give a f&%k. I'm not going to just sit in the house and wait and see if someone kicks my down down... and I'm not going to the windows to look, because with lights on inside and dark outside, you can't see JACK and they can see you clear. I'm not going to call 911 for just a noise... so yeah, I'm going to go investigate. I'm going to do it carefully... by exiting on the opposite side of where the noise came and I'm going to sneak over in that direction and hopefully catch whoever it is unawares. If its nothing... great. No problem. If its SOMETHING... then now I have an edge. I'm sorry, but I don't see how waiting in my house gives me an edge... unless I turn of the lights and whip out a gun... which is an equally disruptive and paranoid action as my going outside to investigate. I'm not going to accidentally shoot a con ed man... because I'm going to be sneaking up on them, not the other way around, and I don't take a gun with me, I take a weapon that requires me to get right up on em... so I will clearly see who I am dealing with. Also, what sort of Con Ed guy sneaks around my house at night??? If I hear a noise while I'm sleeping and think it might be something... then I do the same thing... because someone willing to break into a home thats most likely occupied with people is ready to do violence... so I'll be ready to meet them on open ground outside my home, away from my family and pets. If they DO get me, they are far more likely to leave then to continue robbing the house, as at that point a disturbance has been made and things are not going according to plan. If I wait for them to come in the house, they endanger my wife and my pets in the home... so again, I don't see how its better to sit in the house and wait. I can't call 911 till I know its more then an animal or something making the noise, and by that time, its likely too late. No... I think being proactive and going out to meet the threat on my terms IS the wisest course of action, for me and my family. I believe we agree to disagree on this one, Jim.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 3:04:39 GMT
Queenslands pretty much the same as south australia, they keep things in perspective of due force. Cut an unarmed man, your stuffed, kill him, really stuffed, cut an armed man get off, kill armed, maybe get off ........ but I do think they like you to take a knife to a gun fight ........ oh and dont be alone in the house it was your family you were worried for ...... mmhmm ditto in NZ
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 3:11:09 GMT
Shadow, I'm with you man. Mostly. If I hear something unusual, I investigate with my family safely inside. I DON'T want them INSIDE where my family is. That would be a titanic failure in my role as defender of my castle. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid too but I think paranoid people live longer.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 4:30:50 GMT
I'm sorry I can't jump on the "protecting his property" bandwagon with the rest of you. Any life is worth more to me than any property... unless that property is supporting life... like a breathing machine or something. Party at Veldruk's! First to get there gets the best stuff!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 4:43:35 GMT
I hear strange noises outside my home, and other homes I have lived in throughout my life... and yes, I DO grab a weapon (if one is available) and go outside to see what it is/confront what it is. If I just waited for whatever is going on to go away or come inside my home, I lose the initiative and may end up facing a gun, knife, who knows what on their terms not mine. Wow,... That's just a little paranoid Lose the initiative? Well, you already take the initiative when you secure the home & phone for backup. For a thief to be able to harm you they will first need to get in the house. If you go out, you not only weaken your defensive posture, but (should something happen to you) leave your family alone to fend for themselves. Well, I get your second point, and it's a good one. But what's so paranoid about his reaction to strange noises? Most people are going to make sure their family is fine and go investigate the noise. Whether they carry a weapon of some kind depends on how scared they are about running into a person during that investigation. I investigate armed if my dogs go off. Unarmed if they don't (I probably imagined the noise in that case). Depends on what neighborhood you were in. I've been in bad cities, too, but lived in good neighborhoods. If you were in a bad neighborhood, then you were dangerously complacent Not to do as he said. So either you were not in such a bad place, or you got lucky. Either is good, though luck wears out eventually. In any case, get a dog. A big, noisy dog that can provide additional Physical protection as well as alarm. I prefer Chows, but there are plenty of choices. Unfortunately, the size of my home mandates a smaller dog, so I got ones bred to wake drunk sailors. They go off, the entire neighborhood wakes up. We caught 2 people breaking into Other houses because my dogs heard them and went off. No more problems around here. Edit: Yeah, Don't go outside to investigate a strange noise at night. That's not paranoid, that's stupid. If it's not a person, it could be a bear or a moose (please let it be a bear, they do less damage to persons and property) or something small and rabid. If it is a person, you just highlighted yourself And give up the initiative because whoever it is probably doesn't have adjust his sight to the dark. Turn on the exterior lights to screw up his sight and let you see what's out there and to scare who/whatever it is. Again, Dogs will do the scaring for you and let you know exactly where whatever it is is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 7:17:40 GMT
sorry psych cop friends heresay, he said really nothing counts until you get to court ....... he says just dont do anything unless their is good light, he has something lethal, he rushes you or someone and you got some witness who can colaborate ........ he says its a tough system .....
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2009 7:32:09 GMT
to the people that dont like what i posted.....at least i didnt semprinien kill the guy with a sword.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 17, 2009 8:03:53 GMT
Edit: Yeah, Don't go outside to investigate a strange noise at night. That's not paranoid, that's stupid. If it's not a person, it could be a bear or a moose (please let it be a bear, they do less damage to persons and property) or something small and rabid. If it is a person, you just highlighted yourself And give up the initiative because whoever it is probably doesn't have adjust his sight to the dark. Turn on the exterior lights to screw up his sight and let you see what's out there and to scare who/whatever it is. Again, Dogs will do the scaring for you and let you know exactly where whatever it is is. Dogs are a good idea... as are exterior lights or even motion sensor lights. I have neither of these. I also don't have moose around... and the bear was a freak occurrence. We don't normally get bear around here. I have very excellent night vision... I adjust quickly and I have found that my night vision, even while adjusting, is better then 3/4 of my friends. After adjusting its better then everyone I know except my father, who I swear is part wolf. I am also, as I noted, a LOT more sneaky then people would think. I thank my father for this again... who used to take me into the woods and play games with me that I later learned were ways for him to teach me things. He also used to hide... ALL THE TIME... at random times and places. If I didn't stay alert at all times and spot him he would jump out and scare the crap out of me. He did this for years... even after I moved out. He used to come to my work and, if he found my bike in front without a lock, he would take it and hide it... and then wait for me to get off work and see it was missing... so he could give me the lecture about being more aware and protecting my stuff. All of this may sound extreme... and to most people I bet it is... but I'm thankful for lessons he taught me, and I carry habits I learned from him to this day. I still always sit in restaurants and coffee shops in such a way that I can see the main door and most of the space, and so that no one can come up behind me. I always size up everyone I come across for possible hidden weapons... I watch the way they walk and move and try and gage their speed, strength, training and aggression level. I make sure always to ware clothing that allows me a full range of motion, should I need it. Things like that. I feel 100% confident that when I circle outside to investigate what may or may not be someone sneaking into my home... that I stand a much better chance of a favorable outcome then I would if I just wait inside for them to come in... and I also feel I am doing much better for my wife if I leave her with a phone and a shotgun, and I take the fight TO the potential danger, rather then let it come inside. I think people who can not understand this either don't know me (which is almost everyone here) or don't understand the classic 'The best Defense is a strong offence'... or both.
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 17, 2009 8:56:50 GMT
The blood is on his hands... er... hand. Wow Ric... I would not have suspected such Dark Comedy from you, you are always so up-beat and positive. For the moment I'm shocked, perhaps later I'll laugh. I thought I was being upbeat and positive. ;D I don't know if the kid or kids were justified or not, the authorities will sort that out. It does seem apparent that the burglar would still be alive if he hadn't burgled one time too many. Hell, we all gotta go, I'll save my tears for someone more deserving.
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