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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 20:05:16 GMT
Its a figure of speech, James, it doesn't mean someone is trying to interject faith into the conversation. Like someone saying JESUS H. CHRIST!!! in exasperation- does that mean he was trying to insert his faith into the dilemma? Or just expressing his ire?
As for the topic, my feeling is this- if you have an interloper lurking about outside of your house, naturally, this qualifies as a 911 instance. Once they break in and ENTER the premises, as far as I'm concerned, they're fair game.
For the record, I keep a shotgun under the bed, a nightstick that sits in a ring attached to my nightstand and a short sword between mattress and box spring. On my wife's side, a number of short swords and knives- I'll be the first to admit, I may react badly and forget all of that crap in order to keep us safe if I'm surprised in bed, asleep. If I hear you enter? Believe it or not, I'm not going for the shotgun- I'm taking the nightstick and the shortsword (its blunt), and I'm going to administer a beatdown to whomever had the audacity to break into my house.
Veldruk, if I didn't know any better, I'd think you were angling to be counsel for the prosecution- but that's just how I see it. You say all life is precious, but I do not agree. I think there are degrees of worth- and sure, I bet that burglar has a family, probably one that loves him- but that doesn't give him the right to do as he pleases, does it?
Given that he drew down on police officers and they did NOT fire on him astonishes me...in nearby PG County (where I live) once you draw down on an officer, you've just hammered the final nail in your erstwhile coffin. Basically, you're a dead man- which is as it should be since drawing a weapon signals intent.
But I find a slight contradiction in your last post- maybe contradiction's too strong a word, but something is amiss. Your first post extolled the virtues of valuing human life but you yourself then go on to say that:
'Heck, just reading this story inspired little more then a "What a shame, someone needlessly died" feeling in me.'
Maybe its just me, but that does not constitute the highest regard for human life if you can be so blase about it- so which is it? Is this just an instance of someone toning it down so they're not overly vilified by the other members of the board, or did you take the 'high road' simply because no one else did?
Just looked like you were attempting to recant some of the more vitriolic portions of your initial post- my thing is, if you truly feel that way, then you're only debasing yourself by backpedaling. Stick to your beliefs, otherwise, why bother, know what I'm sayin?
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 16, 2009 20:09:07 GMT
Dont know where youre from... but in THIS state b & e or residential burglary IS classified as VIOLENT CRIME ... and requires 90% completion of the sentence.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 20:11:11 GMT
ChrisA- Yeah, as I stated previously, I should have compared crimes against property. I'll go and fix it in my OP. And again, bad argument. Entering someone's house without permission is not a crime against property. It is home invasion. Far more serious a crime than writing on a wall. I won't even bring up the stealing part for already your argument is wrong. Look. I respect your view on the importance of life, but don't be shocked and angered that other people don't share your beliefs. And maybe stay away from analogies? They're not working for your argument
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Post by YlliwCir on Sept 16, 2009 20:18:31 GMT
I've been the robber and the robbee. The robber doesn't care about you, he's wants what he wants and will take it without regard for you or your well being. Cross his path and bad stuff can happen to you. The guy doing the burglary is the bad guy. He set the events in motion and he is responsible for the outcome. The blood is on his hands... er... hand.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 20:28:39 GMT
Chad Arnow from my armoury wrote that on CNN they said there were 4 students confronting the thief, one of them with a katana. That changes some things here. Suddenly it's a bit less "heroic".
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 16, 2009 20:34:36 GMT
Agreed ... that changes a lot... in fact if true it is deplorable...
However I hope tis debate nicely illustrates why we as a community do not like to promote swords as home defense weapons...
Its a tragedy for all involved... and just as it has sparked debate in this thread... you can bet there will be debate sparked in legal and legislative sessions about the continues legality of sword ownership...
Sure... in a life or death situation... use what you must... but damn , a few more such incidents will put us in serious danger of a sword ban ala Ireland
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Post by randomnobody on Sept 16, 2009 20:38:54 GMT
Chad Arnow from my armoury wrote that on CNN they said there were 4 students confronting the thief, one of them with a katana. That changes some things here. Suddenly it's a bit less "heroic". Well, this is some new news. Drastically different affair now. Sheesh, and the thread in the Cafe wasn't nearly this toasty...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 20:44:36 GMT
I just checked, and the CNN article does indeed state that: "Four students, one armed with a samurai sword, had confronted the suspect in the garage. The man 'lunged' at the students, and the student with the sword defended himself, severing the man's left hand and cutting his upper body." And that "It was not immediately clear whether all four students lived at the house, [city police spokesman Anthony Guglielmi] said." www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/15/samurai.sword.killing/index.html
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 20:50:47 GMT
Is private ownership of swords in Ireland banned entirely, or do you have to register them? When did they do this Did the government there go about collecting everybody's swords Obviously the idiots in the gov. over there never heard of Okinawa and all the great martial art forms that were based on common agricultural tools In modern times, far more people have been killed with axes, hammers, baseball bats and other common implements than swords
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 20:58:41 GMT
I have not read this whole thread so I may be have missed some of the discussion but here are some thoughts to throw out there
Some one has been killed, someone’s life has been taken. Taking a life is such a serious thing to have happened that as far as I’m concerned in a just and civilised society, such actions must be taken with the up most seriousness. It should be fully investigated and considered by a court of law. It should be for a court to way up whether the actions were justified or not, and whether they amount to a criminal act.
There is a lot of talk about the intruder lunging at the student. Who said that he lunged at the student, what evidence is there for this? The student’s testimony only? How do we know this is true? Just because one person provided one side of the story does not make it true.
The intruder had a criminal record but the student did not know that at the time all he know was that some one was inside his garage.
Would the reaction of people have been different if the intruder had no record, or had been a 12 year old kid? Is killing an intruder only justified if he is a crim, a bad guy, an evil doer or whatever other emotion laden word you want to use, or is it justifiable to kill someone just because they are on your property.
I always get edgy when people start thinking in black and white terms, life is complex and things are rarely this simple People really should be careful reaching a judgment based purely on a newspaper article. In my experience, there is often far more to these things then the newspapers report.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 21:05:58 GMT
Sheesh, now it's 4 kids, one with a sword. I suppose the only thing we can do now is to wait for a full investigation to go thru. I don't want a kid who was scared shitless to go to prison for a while over this. But if it turns out that this kid formed a gang for some "payback" over a stolen gaming console, well... we'll just have to see. Ric- Nice use of dark humor there at the end ChrisA & Marc- Ok, when I said that B&E was a crime against property and not a violent crime I may have made to broad a stroke. I did a bit more researching with the resources I have at hand and apparently we're standing on a line. Depending on if it was only breaking and entering or if was classified as a burglary, could determine if it was violent or against property. I found arguments to support both cases but I've decided to say screw it and leave this dead horse alone. I'm not a lawyer and I'm to lazy to try and go thru the facts of this case and cross reference the law books in this state. Ebon Paladin- I do not kid myself. People die everyday and if I were to become an emotional wreck every time someone died, then I'd probably be wearing a lovely white jacked right now sitting comfortably in my very own room with padded wall paper. However, I look at any given situation from as many angles as I can. A story in the news about an intruder dying, we hear everyday. But when it's brought down to a personal level with words like "My house" and "I would", I start getting more fervor. So the difference in tone was me pulling reactions from different stages of me reading the news and then reading the posts instead of a cumulative reaction to the past day's worth of subject matter regarding the kid and the intruder. My apologies.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 21:13:59 GMT
The blood is on his hands... er... hand. Alright, I know - heavy topic, right? Still, good one Ric. +1 for bad pun in the face of tragedy. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 21:19:58 GMT
A shame on all of you. A man's life was lost over little more then a few hundred bucks in electronics. Sure he was a repeat offender, but does that mean if a man drives over the speed limit vandalizes enough times it is ok to kill him?(Edited to compare crimes against property) I'm sure in a perfect little world of numbers and statistics we could look at this with the glee, as you all have, like this. -Crime will probably drop for the next couple years in that neighborhood. -Tax dollars will not be spent keeping this man incarcerated. -Members of the community might feel a tad bit safer in their day to day life which could ripple in who knows how many different directions. Most of you seem to think that this student has reached some sort of sword owner nirvana? It disgusts me that the majority of you are applauding this "victim" with phrases that resemble "He deserved to die", "I wish I could do the same thing" and "Well done student, you did the right thing." I'm not looking to make enemies on this forum, but it is my opinion that many of you need to ask yourselves why it is you own a functional sword. Are you just waiting for the "justifiable homicide?" Waiting for the moment that anyone steps foot onto your property uninvited so you can cut him down? I think not. I will go ahead and proactively counter point any challenges that may be made to my standpoint. Some of you might say that the student felt his life was endangered when the thief had lunged at him. Fair enough. But think of your current home. You've lived there for a decent amount of time, and know the layout. Also, if you are made aware of the intruders presence, you have a good idea of where he is. Would you put yourself in a position where the intruder could lunge at you? For that matter, what if the intruder had a gun? I wouldn't want to make my presence known at the last second, which would inspire a knee jerk reaction from the intruder to react to me with hostility. The fact of the matter is that when you decide to become an owner of a lethal weapon, you take on a responsibility to ensure the safety of every human life in any given conflict. If an enemy has a lethal weapon of his own, steps need to be taken to ensure your own safety or the safety of any other person who's life is threatened by the enemy. There are thos of you who will bring up the "shoot to kill" mentality. I tend to agree with that philosophy fully. The moment the student drew the weapon he was saying to himself that he is fully prepared to take a person's life. Again, I won't speculate as if he drew the weapon and then confronted or if he left it sheathed until seconds before using it. I do NOT believe that the student fully assessed the situation or the threat level presented by the intruder when he chose to use a lethal weapon against another human being. On a quick unrelated note: Itigar Your story about being broken into didn't sit well with me at all. I'll break it down as accurately as I can recall: -Father catches and detains intruder (would be thief)- No problems there -Family slaps him around a bit- Again no problems. Hell, he'd probably even spread the message to his thief buddies about the crazy people that live in your neighborhood and that if anyone is looking to do some thieving, to look elsewhere. -Brother takes a (rock?) and bashes the guy in the head? -Starting to have a problem there. Even a rock can be, and has been, used as a deadly weapon but that wasn't you and I don't want to dwell on it. -Cops show up and take your side and try to cover your butts. -I can live with that. -You and 10 of your friends jump this guy!?!? Perhaps you didn't tell the whole story. Perhaps you had caught him in the act of breaking in to your house or someone else's. But as far as I'm reading, you were hanging out with your friends and see this guy walking down the street and decide it would be a fun idea to ambush him and beat him severly for "old times sake?" I wont even go into questioning your intellect or questioning your mental stability. I will just say that the man had already paid for his crimes and if you didn't think he paid enough for what he did then perhaps you need to get involved with writing the laws in your community. Now for the rest of you, go ahead and call me a peace loving hippy that wants to sit around a campfire playing a guitar. All of you have the right to your opinions just as I do and I want to hear exactly how you feel about my stance on this topic, as long as we keep everything in a civilized tone. Some of you have already helped me in other threads, and I am thankful for that help. Like I said before, I'm not looking to make enemies here, I just want to voice my stance. -V the man wasn't killed over $200, but because he broke into someone's house... he did that to my house I would have responded the same way, actually, no, I would not have waited for him to touch me. I don't know if he had a knife or a gun on him and I would not wait to find out... no one is calling u a peace hippie, no person in their right mind would want to go around killing people, but to paraphrase the SEALS regulation, one is supposed to use immediate, lethal force when in a hostile situation. for a SEAL that might mean a guy armed to the teeth, but sine I ain't a SEAL I have to react the same way to a person who is less armed/skillful than that. Deciding to fight instead of flight is very courageous on the guy's part and I fully support him for it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 21:44:51 GMT
Yeah, big tough man with a sword and 3 of his buddies are gonna go teach the bad guys a lesson. Real courageous when you outnumber your opponent and out arm him too.
If they wanted to send a message of "we're not gonna take it" a baseball bat and some broken ribs would have spread that message just fine.
SEALS are HIGHLY trained individuals that are capable of making life and death assessments without hesitation.
They are not 20 year old boys with swords.
... Well, some might be 20... and some might have swords, but you get what I'm saying here.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 16, 2009 22:34:59 GMT
I hear strange noises around my house all the time, but i don't go outside with a sword every time to investigate. My neighbors would think i was a nutcase! (They already may? : Surely if the circumstances required me to defend myself or my family i would do what needed to be done. But lets be logical... If i were to see a prowler outside my home, would it make more sense to go outside of my home to confront him? Your home is your best protection in that case. In that case, the best offense is a good defense... Check to make sure every door & window is locked, secure your family, and call the police. If they manage to get inside, well... your ass is mine. I hear strange noises outside my home, and other homes I have lived in throughout my life... and yes, I DO grab a weapon (if one is available) and go outside to see what it is/confront what it is. If I just waited for whatever is going on to go away or come inside my home, I lose the initiative and may end up facing a gun, knife, who knows what on their terms not mine. I don't always grab a sword, I grab whatever is near me... sometimes thats a knife, a pair of escrima sticks, sometimes its a sword. I don't call 911 every time I hear a nose, because I'll not be the little boy who cried wolf. Police have a lot of things to do, and they have a memory as well. If I call the cops a bunch of times for a cat or a dog or (in one case a year ago, a Bear... more on that later. ) then they will remember all that waisted time, and might not respond quickly when I do need them. If I'm alone... and I hear a noise... I grab a weapon and I circle around the opposite side of where I heard the noise and try to sneak up on it... I'm surprisingly stealthy for a fat guy, my father taught me how. If my wife is home, I leave her near the shotgun and the phone and tell her to be ready to call 911 if need be, THEN I do what I would do if I'm alone. I want to avoid letting anything get to the point where it spills into my home if I can, especially if my wife is home. I've lived in some really rough areas in my time, I've been homeless and I've lived in the woods... and I have had my share of violent encounters, so I feel capable enough to carry out these actions... different people, with different experiences, might be better served following a different course. I can't help but think that I could easily be put in the same spot as this kid was... (Depending on what version of the report we go with, more on that later also.) and be forced into a violent conflict with an intruder. I'm NOT going to wait for him to get into my home tho... if he is on my property THINKING about getting in my home... and my alertness gives me warning to this, I'm going to size the initiative and take it to him. I'm not going to call 911 every time I hear a noise... some of the responsibility for defending my life, my loved ones and my property has to be mine. Now... these new reports from CNN apparently make the whole situation VERY different... but we still have no real clue what happened that night, and likely won't for a few more days at least. Thats why I made such a point in my first posts of saying IF everything happened as presented in the links in this thread... then I believe this... because we do not have all the information, and making any judgments without full and complete information is pointless. Right now, only one guy knows FOR SURE what happened... and others may know... in a while, WE will have better information as well. The blood is on his hands... er... hand. Wow Ric... I would not have suspected such Dark Comedy from you, you are always so up-beat and positive. For the moment I'm shocked, perhaps later I'll laugh. P.S. Ah, I almost forgot, the Bear. About a year ago we had a bear wandering around in my and a couple of my neighbours back yards... one a couple houses up from me got a picture of him from their back window, knocing over their birdbath... it was in the paper. I heard the noise but, since it was daytime not night, I just looked out the window... and there was a bear lumbering around. I always keep that in mind when I head out to investigate a strange noise these days. ;D
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 16, 2009 22:41:19 GMT
Is private ownership of swords in Ireland banned entirely, or do you have to register them? When did they do this Did the government there go about collecting everybody's swords Obviously the idiots in the gov. over there never heard of Okinawa and all the great martial art forms that were based on common agricultural tools In modern times, far more people have been killed with axes, hammers, baseball bats and other common implements than swords Why not do your own research and find out? It doesnt make one whit of difference what you have now said in at least two threads about these items being used as weapons. So what? The big difference is that all the items you have listed have purposes other than being a weapon, and their use as a weapon is improvised... swords really have no concievable purpose EXCEPT as weapons... which is what makes them so "bannable" . Surely you can see that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 23:08:11 GMT
ok if it was something like 4 guy trapping one and cutting him up, i am totally not cool with that!!! but if the thief jumped at the kids thinking he could take them or push past them not seeing the sword ,, then im a little on the fence ,, but in the end of this scenario i still dont see it as "bad"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 23:08:30 GMT
[quote author=marc board=general thread=12281 post=202701 time=1253140879 It doesnt make one whit of difference what you have now said in at least two threads about these items being used as weapons. So what? /quote] Huh I know I just got hammered, I don't get why
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Sept 16, 2009 23:15:43 GMT
[quote author=marc board=general thread=12281 post=202701 time=1253140879 It doesnt make one whit of difference what you have now said in at least two threads about these items being used as weapons. So what? /quote] Huh Is it really that confusing Youve stated in at least two threads that swords being banned is unreasonable because so many more people are killed by improvised weapons... I say again, so what? Hammers will never be banned, because they are primarily a tool , and use as a weapon is only improvised. Swords are much more succeptable to banning BECAUSE they are primarily a weapon, and any other use is improvised. I cant be more clear, sorry if you still dont understand. Sorry if I seem blunt or hostile ... not my intention... I just seem abrupt sometimes.. I did not have hostile intentions... just trying to point out that swords are easily viewed as dangerous weapons with no legitimate purpose other than killing. Thats why we as a community so jealously guard their modern status as collectables rather than weapons.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 23:30:05 GMT
Ok, I get it now Marc In the interest not bringing negative legislative scrutiny and possible laws banning sword ownership, we should consider them as recreational and collectible items, and not consider them as weapons, use guns, use tools, but pass over the swords when grabbing something with which to take with us to investigate that bump in the night?
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