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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 16, 2009 1:21:56 GMT
I was actually researching this whole subject a couple weeks ago... seems liek there are very very few states that have laws the way they should be concerning home defense. Texas being one of them. There really are some things I love about Texas...
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Post by Dave(utilityslave) on Sept 16, 2009 1:24:37 GMT
Here in NJ there has been much discussion about the Castle doctrine.............even where it is adopted it usually isn't done right.
There would be no chance for a bad guy in TN however.
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Avery
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"It's alright little brother... There are more!!!
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Post by Avery on Sept 16, 2009 1:30:55 GMT
Actually, thats not quite true, at least in North Carolina. I have my concealed carry permit here, and my instructer told us a few laws. One of which follows If someone is banging on my door in a threatning manner, and I cannot asses whether he is armed, I can defend myself and blow a hole in the door. However, if I come home and find a man in my living room holding a TV, I can do nothing but call the police. The only way I can use a handgun is if he is armed and brandishing. Really...? That seems so ass backwards to me Its amazing how different the laws can be from state to state. Things are very different where i live. Yeah Its pretty wild. I was trying to get a link to the exact law, but the page won't load. Their also trying to change the " duty to retreat" law here too. That would mean if I see an armed man on my property, I can approach them. As it is now, if I am outside of 20yds, I have a duty to retreat and call 911. But, if the other fella is dead, who's to say how far I was from him. We were told that whatever we do, be sure you can convince a jury that you or someones life was in danger when you acted.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 1:44:00 GMT
we caught a burgular in my house years ago.
my dad held him down, while me and my brother took turns in belting him. my mum got in on it too and slapped him a few times. we questioned him, my brother split his head open with a big sharpenong stone. the neighbors called the police . the detective asked my brother "how did he split his head"? my brother told him hpw he hit him over the head with the stone. the detective said"no you didnt, he slipped." another detective asked me why did we ring the cops, we should have just buried him. this is in sydney , australia by the way. by the time this all got to court, the tables turned and we were being charged for assualt. he decided not to charge though, cause me and my brother "met" his nethiew and "convinced "him to get his uncle to drop charges. a copule years later we seen him again...so just for good old times sake me and my freinds jumped him and kicked 10 shades of semprini out of him. we have never been robbed since.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 16, 2009 1:45:55 GMT
we caught a burgular in my house years ago. my dad held him down, while me and my brother took turns in belting him. my mum got in on it too and slapped him a few times. we questioned him, my brother split his head open with a big sharpenong stone. the neighbors called the police . the detective asked my brother "how did he split his head"? my brother told him hpw he hit him over the head with the stone. the detective said"no you didnt, he slipped." another detective asked me why did we ring the cops, we should have just buried him. this is in sydney , australia by the way. by the time this all got to court, the tables turned and we were being charged for assualt. he decided not to charge though, cause me and my brother "met" his nethiew and "convinced "him to get his uncle to drop charges. a copule years later we seen him again...so just for good old times sake me and my freinds jumped him and kicked 10 shades of semprini out of him. we have never been robbed since. Charming story...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 1:49:32 GMT
I won't even bother commenting on that story
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 2:09:33 GMT
In New Zealand the student would've been tried for manslaughter at the very least
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 16, 2009 2:12:00 GMT
In New Zealand the student would've been tried for manslaughter at the very least That may yet happen... we only know what we have read also, I hope the police will collect all the facts and that whats right will come threw... but I am jaded as well so I have little faith in that. I do hope tho.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 3:03:56 GMT
If it was me, I'd want to keep a nice heavy bokken or wooden sword handy and grab that instead of a real sword if I intended to actually use it on someone. It's less likely to kill and maim, but still effective. It doesn't have the same "awe factor" but I have no interest in killing anyone unless they WILL kill me otherwise. You don't always have a choice. But the laws are tilted against the victims.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 3:10:55 GMT
If it was me, I'd want to keep a nice heavy bokken or wooden sword handy and grab that instead of a real sword if I intended to actually use it on someone. It's less likely to kill and maim, but still effective. It doesn't have the same "awe factor" but I have no interest in killing anyone unless they WILL kill me otherwise. You don't always have a choice. But the laws are tilted against the victims. Dead people can't sue you. Whatever state you're in. And jail time for manslaughter doesn't vary much from jail time for aggravated assault. Certainly not once you take "Good Behaviour" into account.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 5:20:00 GMT
I live in Texas where the laws lean more in favor of the victim. But we have lawyers here too and there's a good reason why, as a whole, they are pretty much universally despised. I sure hope the kid doesn't get charged, or if he does that he gets a judge that understands the intent of the law and not merely the letter of it.
I admit to some satisfaction at hearing of this vermin's demise but there will always be the argument that just because you have the right to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should. I am applying that broadly to the many discussions and not to the specific situation that led to them and to the consequences of acting. Justice has nothing to do with the law. I believe that every man has a God given right to defend his life and his property. I believe this kid acted within his God given rights. But the question here is should this man have been killed over the value of whatever it was he was trying to steal? No. Absolutely 100% NO. But it was him that put himself in that situation and him that escalated the confrontation and elicited a response that ultimately got him snuffed. If he had been a productive member of society and respected its laws, or if he had just stayed home, he would be alive today. Personally I think his biggest crime of all was stealing oxygen from the rest of us.
That being said... I find myself wondering what type of sword it was.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 6:14:39 GMT
Shame. Its a shame that in this modern "civilized" society a situation like this would occur. Its a natural fault of human beings (being animals) to revert to outdated survival methods, like stealing and killing. Dont get me wrong, I have a family and just thinking of someone coming near my house with the intent to harm or take from them...well it just makes me almost hope it will happen so I can go fulfill that urge to "defend", but I would never think about going to raid someone elses house. Its a shame that the thief felt he had to steal to live, but its also a shame that our society largely ignores the problem that our methods for dealing with crimes, do little to remedy the causes of them. Not that I have a solution or anything...anyway its just too bad that not everyone was like me and got on the "dont be a semprini" bandwagon (not that its that simple or anything) All this being said I firmly believe that one should always bear responsibility for ones actions. Everyone knows action = consequence. Just a shame that aspects of reality suck. 2 cents. usd.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 6:23:17 GMT
huh, a little unclear in my opinion there. If he came in my house, I might have intend to harm them. If I saw him in the garage, I dont know, maglite maybe. Possibly just 911 call. I think I might buy a 12 gauge pump action shotgun now, for the noise...Everyone knows what that sounds like. I think most burglars are prone to bolt instead of confront.
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Post by stromloswordsusa on Sept 16, 2009 7:36:52 GMT
I too wonder what type of sword was used... a fully functional piece or not. Slightly off topic, but this shooting happened the other day, not far away in Texas. It;s sad that the 4 intruders were 16 and 17 year olds - result, 2 dead, one injured, other arrested, and charges unlikely for the resident who defended the home. www.kvue.com/news/local/stories/090509kvuesanmarcos-bkm.14b51c63b.html.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 8:26:15 GMT
Our system of law is screwy. Once when I worked convenience stores some teens stole a 30 pack of beer from me. I chased him outside, but he got in the car with his friends before I could catch him. My momentum carrying me forward I stuck my foot out and kicked a dent in his door. When the cops arrived they told me that I could get into more trouble for kicking his door than he could for stealing the beer.
Another story that happened years ago that I remember reading about was a man broke into the house of a couple that were away on vacation and stole several thousands of dollars worth of items. While he was leaving he cut his hand on the glass of the window that he had broken out, SUED the couple for bodily injury, and won.... Talk about screwed up.
As far as this case is concerned I am 100% for a homeowner (renter, boarder, etc.) having the power to take the law into his hands when it comes to protecting his or her property, family, or wellbeing. My personal belief is that if you threaten the safety and peace of mind of another human being by trying to take from them their property, life, sanity, or otherwise seek to abuse them physically or mentally you deserve what you get. You forfeit your rights as a human being and should be fed to the pigs. They gotta eat too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 8:29:37 GMT
A shame on all of you.
A man's life was lost over little more then a few hundred bucks in electronics. Sure he was a repeat offender, but does that mean if a man drives over the speed limit vandalizes enough times it is ok to kill him?(Edited to compare crimes against property)
I'm sure in a perfect little world of numbers and statistics we could look at this with the glee, as you all have, like this.
-Crime will probably drop for the next couple years in that neighborhood. -Tax dollars will not be spent keeping this man incarcerated. -Members of the community might feel a tad bit safer in their day to day life which could ripple in who knows how many different directions.
Most of you seem to think that this student has reached some sort of sword owner nirvana? It disgusts me that the majority of you are applauding this "victim" with phrases that resemble "He deserved to die", "I wish I could do the same thing" and "Well done student, you did the right thing."
I'm not looking to make enemies on this forum, but it is my opinion that many of you need to ask yourselves why it is you own a functional sword. Are you just waiting for the "justifiable homicide?" Waiting for the moment that anyone steps foot onto your property uninvited so you can cut him down?
I think not.
I will go ahead and proactively counter point any challenges that may be made to my standpoint. Some of you might say that the student felt his life was endangered when the thief had lunged at him. Fair enough. But think of your current home. You've lived there for a decent amount of time, and know the layout. Also, if you are made aware of the intruders presence, you have a good idea of where he is. Would you put yourself in a position where the intruder could lunge at you? For that matter, what if the intruder had a gun? I wouldn't want to make my presence known at the last second, which would inspire a knee jerk reaction from the intruder to react to me with hostility.
The fact of the matter is that when you decide to become an owner of a lethal weapon, you take on a responsibility to ensure the safety of every human life in any given conflict. If an enemy has a lethal weapon of his own, steps need to be taken to ensure your own safety or the safety of any other person who's life is threatened by the enemy.
There are thos of you who will bring up the "shoot to kill" mentality. I tend to agree with that philosophy fully. The moment the student drew the weapon he was saying to himself that he is fully prepared to take a person's life. Again, I won't speculate as if he drew the weapon and then confronted or if he left it sheathed until seconds before using it.
I do NOT believe that the student fully assessed the situation or the threat level presented by the intruder when he chose to use a lethal weapon against another human being.
On a quick unrelated note: Itigar
Your story about being broken into didn't sit well with me at all. I'll break it down as accurately as I can recall:
-Father catches and detains intruder (would be thief)- No problems there
-Family slaps him around a bit- Again no problems. Hell, he'd probably even spread the message to his thief buddies about the crazy people that live in your neighborhood and that if anyone is looking to do some thieving, to look elsewhere.
-Brother takes a (rock?) and bashes the guy in the head? -Starting to have a problem there. Even a rock can be, and has been, used as a deadly weapon but that wasn't you and I don't want to dwell on it.
-Cops show up and take your side and try to cover your butts. -I can live with that.
-You and 10 of your friends jump this guy!?!? Perhaps you didn't tell the whole story. Perhaps you had caught him in the act of breaking in to your house or someone else's. But as far as I'm reading, you were hanging out with your friends and see this guy walking down the street and decide it would be a fun idea to ambush him and beat him severly for "old times sake?" I wont even go into questioning your intellect or questioning your mental stability. I will just say that the man had already paid for his crimes and if you didn't think he paid enough for what he did then perhaps you need to get involved with writing the laws in your community.
Now for the rest of you, go ahead and call me a peace loving hippy that wants to sit around a campfire playing a guitar. All of you have the right to your opinions just as I do and I want to hear exactly how you feel about my stance on this topic, as long as we keep everything in a civilized tone.
Some of you have already helped me in other threads, and I am thankful for that help. Like I said before, I'm not looking to make enemies here, I just want to voice my stance.
-V
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2009 8:36:32 GMT
coming from a police officers point of view you have two incidents that coincide. the suspected burglary of the garage and a case of self-defense. granted laws very from state to state and i am not familiar with the laws in that state but the way i read the story is that he did not strike/kill the intruder for breaking in, but because the subject lunged at him. most self defense laws allow you to defend yourself or others if you feel in fear. the sad side i have seen cases similar to this where the "good" guy was charged on scene, taken to jail, went through a trial, but was eventually acquitted. fyi i live in tennessee where you do not have a duty to retreat.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Sept 16, 2009 9:32:37 GMT
Well I certainly think the student was not fllowing the most prudent course of action but it's hard to know just what that "most prudent course" is when you've heard a noise. I can't tell you how many times I've "heard a noise" and went to check it out so my family could feel secure. most of the time if I felt nervous I carried something I felt I could defend myself with if the need arose. I think this is a normal and justifiable action. I have never been confronted by someone when doing this though.
the article said the student questioned the guy to see what he was up to and that's when the guy lunged at the student. seems to me the student was not attacking the guy, like he was not planning on killing anyone he just wanted some security just in case. who knows what might be the case had the kid left his katana inside. the news report could have been "police seeking suspect in robbery/homocide." I think if the intruder jumped the kid even though he had a sword then the intruder would have jumped the kid if the kid had nothing. that would have placed the kid in a lot more danger. sounds to me like reasonable self defense. furthermore I think most people here are just saddened by this whole thing because the kid wasn't looking for trouble, he just wanted to make sure he was safe and that there wasn't some bad guy slinking around the place looking to cause harm. guess what, that's what he found. we feel for the kid because he's just a normal guy like most of, a normal guy that just happens to have a sword. no matter how I look at it I see justifiable self defense and I canot see anything the kid needs to go to jail over.
yes I do find it an interesting testimony to the damage a sword can inflict, no I don't think it is "Cool" nor would I want to have done it.
I do hope the kid has no charges filed against him and if he does I hope he is found not guilty of them. I support a person's right to live in a secure place and to investigate potential threats. and of course to defend themselves when attacked.
I also feel no sympathy whatsoever for the burgler who has a LONG wrap-sheet and has been a burden and detriment to our society repeatedly for a very long time. when you break into a person's home you take you life in your hands and roll the dice. this guy lost and good for us that he did. his life of crime is over, I'll not appologize for seeing that as a good thing.
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Post by shadowhowler on Sept 16, 2009 9:40:08 GMT
A shame on all of you. A man's life was lost over little more then a few hundred bucks in electronics. Sure he was a repeat offender, but does that mean if a man drives over the speed limit enough times it is ok to kill him? While I do not condone the 'He got what he deserved, good riddance' sort of mentality... I think YOU are overlooking something. IF (and its a big if) the facts in this case have been laid out in the links provided... this man, this thief, had show a willingness to pull a loaded firearm on a police officer. That makes him very, VERY dangerous. He was a repeat offender, with violent crime in his history. Its not like he just stole bread to eat... this guy had show a willingness to threaten not just human life, but armed police officers. This kid is only 20 years old, he lives in a dangerous part of town that likely is quite frighting to him. His home has been broken into before. The guy lunged at him. IF these facts are in truth facts, then I fully support what the kid did to defend himself. I'm not jumping up and down for joy that he killed a man, and I feel awful for him... the kid, NOT the dead thief. This kid now has to live the rest of his life with the knowledge that he ended someones life... a heavy burden to bare. As for the dead thife... not to put to callus a point on it, but he made his choice, not once, not twice, but many times over to take from people that which does not belong to him, to threaten the safety and the very lives of others. He walked his road, and it lead him to this end. My sympathy, at the moment, is for the kid who has to bare this burden, not the man who brought it upon him.
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Post by kidcasanova on Sept 16, 2009 9:51:24 GMT
I've got to agree with Sean. The loss of life is nothing to scoff at, but my pity is with the young man who now has to deal with guilt, legal issues, and everything that comes along with growing up. He is not even old enough to fully accept who is is or who he is becoming, and he's had this weight shoveled on him.
I am much the same age as he, and I question whether my conscience could handle that type of guilt. I doubt it could, and I've been raised my entire life to respect life, but to defend my own at all costs.
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