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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 24, 2009 18:42:01 GMT
For the most part... no... I don't belive that modern production swords, even the good ones, are anywhere near as durable as the historical swords they were bassed on. For anything aproching that level of durability... I belive you must go custom. Swords in the old days were hand forged by people who KNEW that the sword they were making was going to be used to kill... and that the person weilding it was going to be trusting their life to it. That... in and of its self, suggests more motivation to the craftsmen to make a soild product. Not only did his reputation and livelyhood depend on the quality of his steel... but the LIVES of those who would weild that steel depended on it as well. Your not likely to find that level of motivation from a chiness production sword worker making what amounts to maybe a dollar or two an hour. To get anywhere close to a similer level of craftsmenship, I feel, you must go custom... Tinker, Brenno, Odin, many others... at least to them... they may not fear that if their work is not solid that someone will DIE... but they do not churn out a million and one assembly line peices.... each peice, to them, is a signle work of art.... and expression of their craft and, moreover, of THEMSELVES. That motivation can been seen in each peice. Expecting swords today to stand up to swords of yesterday is, I feel, a bit unrealistic. People back then lived and DIED by that sharp peice of steel... so it had to WORK. Today, we collect, we admire, and perhaps we cut with... as a SPORT. Its just not the same ya know? So yeah... I feel if you want that level of craftsmenship, you have to go custom, and be willing to pay for it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 18:43:11 GMT
Perhaps you're missing the point I'm trying to make Jonathan, but your key phrase is "original purpose." The original purpose is to cut and/or thrust into animal tissue. The original purpose of a sword only means encountering other materials rarely, infrequently, and when it cannot be otherwise avoided.
(And of course to develop the skill that avoids them. We do not hack *through* armor, shields, etc.--we try our best to strike where they are absent. We learn to parry because it may be necessary to save our lives, but whenever and wherever possible the best parry is to just not be in the line of attack.)
Water bottles, pool noddles, cardboard? If that's your intent you're in good shape; they are close to animal tissue in the stress they put on a swords. (Though I doubt even the most promiscuously lethal swordsman in history was going through an enemy or two every day! Just beware that sheer repetition might stress a sword beyond that "original purpose.")
Just remember: PLANT MATERIALS IN PARTICULAR GET EXPONENTIALLY HARDER ON SWORDS WITH THICKNESS. Keep it in mind and be wary. In my own case, for example, almost all I cut is bottles of varying plastics--and, from time to time, good old fashioned meat.
Because if it cuts meat, and stands up to that use, then by default I do not worry that that sword's good enough for its original purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 18:53:36 GMT
For the most part... no... I don't belive that modern production swords, even the good ones, are anywhere near as durable as the historical swords they were bassed on. For anything aproching that level of durability... I belive you must go custom. Well, or figure how to rehilt your blades. (Which does pertain to the OP; it wasn't the blade that was the problem but the hilting mechanism.) Hope this doesn't sound too blasphemous, but it's almost always ONLY the hilting where the craftsmanship really sucks--I have had and/or used dozens of blades from Windlass (and DT/MRL), Hanwei and Cold Steel that I have found the equal--and sometimes even the (gasp!) superior--of any Albion or custom maker's, at least when I check, adjust and/or redo the hilt. (Then again, I also love getting creative with unusual-and-non-historical-but- historically plausible methods. Hey, the historical makers were often underappreciated craftsman and engineers, but that does NOT mean they exhausted every method by which a sword COULD have been hilted.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 18:58:11 GMT
Not as durable as historical swords? Then I might as well get a clunky old DSA or Gen2. Because I might be going through ten bottles a day, rather than one or two.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 19:01:54 GMT
Well, again, I doubt bottles should be much of a problem. Good edge geometry and good maintainance of your edge and you're golden. (Uh, you DO mean plastic water bottles, right? 'Cause those glass whiskey bottles might be a little tricky... )
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 24, 2009 19:04:36 GMT
(Then again, I also love getting creative with unusual-and-non-historical-but- historically plausible methods. Hey, the historical makers were often underappreciated craftsman and engineers, but that does NOT mean they exhausted every method by which a sword COULD have been hilted.) True... but necessity IS the mother of invention... and craftsmen of history built every part of the sword... hilt components inculded... as tho their lives depended on it. Because they DID. I agree with you tho... a lot of modern blades are pretty damn good, mostly due to improvements in steel... but its the hilt construction where historical weapons had it all over most modern replicas.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 19:10:51 GMT
For the most part... no... I don't belive that modern production swords, even the good ones, are anywhere near as durable as the historical swords they were bassed on. For anything aproching that level of durability... I belive you must go custom. Swords in the old days were hand forged by people who KNEW that the sword they were making was going to be used to kill... and that the person weilding it was going to be trusting their life to it. That... in and of its self, suggests more motivation to the craftsmen to make a soild product. Not only did his reputation and livelyhood depend on the quality of his steel... but the LIVES of those who would weild that steel depended on it as well. Your not likely to find that level of motivation from a chiness production sword worker making what amounts to maybe a dollar or two an hour. To get anywhere close to a similer level of craftsmenship, I feel, you must go custom... Tinker, Brenno, Odin, many others... at least to them... they may not fear that if their work is not solid that someone will DIE... but they do not churn out a million and one assembly line peices.... each peice, to them, is a signle work of art.... and expression of their craft and, moreover, of THEMSELVES. That motivation can been seen in each peice. Expecting swords today to stand up to swords of yesterday is, I feel, a bit unrealistic. People back then lived and DIED by that sharp peice of steel... so it had to WORK. Today, we collect, we admire, and perhaps we cut with... as a SPORT. Its just not the same ya know? So yeah... I feel if you want that level of craftsmenship, you have to go custom, and be willing to pay for it. I disagree. We have better steels, a more scientific approach, better and more reliable methods of heat-treat and far better quality control today than we did in the middle ages. We simply have access to tools that they did not. M.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 19:14:24 GMT
Yeah, necessity was the mother of my inventions--in the early days I kept loosening and/or busting those damn Windlass hilts!
It was a great learning experience though. So many of my reconstructed hilts, given the tools I had to work with, were different-looking than the examples from makers that I kept second-guessing that I "must" be doing something "wrong."
It took a looooong time of cutting a lot of things, having everything hold together, and having the handling still be fine (as well as seeing sword examples from many cultures with radically different hilt mechanisms that all functioned well) before I finally had the confidence to accept my own evidence.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 24, 2009 19:19:53 GMT
I disagree. We have better steels, a more scientific approach, better and more reliable methods of heat-treat and far better quality control today than we did in the middle ages. We simply have access to tools that they did not. M. Thats true... we have the tech... but we do not have the NEED. The Japaness had CRAP steel, worse then their western counterparts, but they had need of good weapons... so they learned ways of using what they had in clever ways to make what many consider some of the finest weapons in history. We have beter steel and tools today... but to REALLY take advantage of that it costs MONEY. Hence why I say that if you want something as battle-worthy as old school swords were, you must go custom, and be willing to pay. I would rather have a Howard Clark L6 katana for battle then an older, traditional Katana... but that sword would be 6k+ easy. I can GET what I want, I just have to be willing to pay. Thats my point. Modern production weapons, they type that we deal with here at SBG, $300 dollars and under... no WAY those are comparable in use to the swords a knight would have carried into battle in the 14th century. If you want something like that, your gonna have to go custom, and your gonna have to be willing to pay a lot more then 300 bucks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 19:29:26 GMT
Yes, we have better steel and that, but we don't know swords nearly as well as the medieval blacksmith did. Some historical swords are so well made, we simple can't reproduce that. Near my home there is a guy who makes some of the very best swords out there and he said he would never dare to say his blades are close in quality to the best historical swords. He uses historical methods and handforges every single blade which is then hardened to 62 HRC but is still flexible as hell. I had the honor to handle one of his swords and trust me, a Albion or Tinker is nowhere close to his swords in performance.
About going custom, I also don't think that's necessary, like it was said, do your hilts the same way they were made in the medieval times: By peening the pommel correctly and not by using the modern way of a recessed pommel nut. Sorry to bring that discussion up again, but I still think peening is better ;-)
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jul 24, 2009 19:40:43 GMT
I'd LOVE to know the name of and see some work from this Miracle smith who makes ductile martensite and is so much better than Tinker...etc.
Could you share please?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 19:43:30 GMT
Sorry, chenessfan, but I don't buy that line for an instant. It smacks of the same romanticization that had the "katana is a superior invincible sword" attitude going for years among even swordophiles, and still among the general populace.
I'm a scientist. You show me a whit--I mean a whit--of empirical evidence that the steels in historical swords are superior in any way to modern steels in some manner we cannot understand or re-create. The materials science tests. The x-ray crystollography. It's not there.
Every serious study shows one of two things. First, that there is no distinction--except for the QC and standardization being much better with modern production methods. Or that there is a distinction--but it falls in the "distinction w/o a difference" category. E.g. even the much-ballyhooed studies on Wootz; guess what, for all practical purposes the differences in microstructure wouldn't make any performance difference, either in cutting or durability.
It's always a shame when those of the past are overlooked for their skills and intelligence. Study the history of science and medicine and we find ancient doctors were not all quacks, and sometimes centuries or millennia ahead of their time. Nevertheless, modern medicine as a whole hardly takes a back seat to medieval or ancient medicine--and neither does modern materials science to any--any--historical smith.
From before Plato and the myths of Atlantis to this day, going beyond proper respect of our ancestors to a romanticization that there was some "Golden Age" that "we can never hope to approach" is a common human tendency. Doesn't make it true.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jul 24, 2009 20:22:21 GMT
I'm a scientist. You show me a whit--I mean a whit--of empirical evidence that the steels in historical swords are superior in any way to modern steels in some manner we cannot understand or re-create. The materials science tests. The x-ray crystollography. It's not there. Every serious study shows one of two things. First, that there is no distinction--except for the QC and standardization being much better with modern production methods. Or that there is a distinction--but it falls in the "distinction w/o a difference" category. E.g. even the much-ballyhooed studies on Wootz; guess what, for all practical purposes the differences in microstructure wouldn't make any performance difference, either in cutting or durability. It's always a shame when those of the past are overlooked for their skills and intelligence. Study the history of science and medicine and we find ancient doctors were not all quacks, and sometimes centuries or millennia ahead of their time. Nevertheless, modern medicine as a whole hardly takes a back seat to medieval or ancient medicine--and neither does modern materials science to any-- any--historical smith. From before Plato and the myths of Atlantis to this day, going beyond proper respect of our ancestors to a romanticization that there was some "Golden Age" that "we can never hope to approach" is a common human tendency. Doesn't make it true. I'm not with Chenessfan all the way... and like Marc, I'd love to see some work from this smith he mention that puts the other makers to shame and gets steel THAT hard but still flexable. I'm not saying old steel was better... in fact, I said the exact OPPOSET. I'm saying, when it comes to swords, old craftsmenship was better then current PRODUCTION craftsmenship... and that if you want a good sword that is ment to be USED in the way swords used to be ment to be used, you'll have to go custom and you'll have to pay a lot more then 300 bucks for it. A lot more. There are some great production swords avalible to the market these days... I have a lot of them, I love them... ...but I'm not going to fool myself that they are as good as true battlfeild weapons made in an age when they were USED were. For THAT level of craftsmenship, I'm willing to pay more when I can.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 20:35:57 GMT
Alright, here you go, Marc: www.dietraumschmiede.de/repl/repl.htmWell, it's all written in German but the pictures do the talk. The first sword on that page is a spatha. Scroll down a bit under the red phrases. There he says: the sword was hardened in the forge and has a hardness of well over 60HRC but bends to 90° without taking a set. And that's just one example. Take yout time and watch the whole page. You won't be disappointed! For another impressive display oh his swords, click on 'Auftragsarbeiten' and scroll all the way down to the first longsword on that page. That blade has barely about 60HRC and watch that flex!! No, your turn, show me a Tinker, Albion or whatever that has 60HRC and flexes like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 20:48:24 GMT
Now lemal, go to that same site and click on 'Archäologie'. What follows is a long article about the quality of spathas and saxes. The project Arno Eckhart (the sword smith), Wolfgang Abart (the best longsword trainer in Germany) and a archeologist talk about was a comparison of some saxe blades with a japanese katana. They gave these blades to a famous japanese smith to look them over and check the quality. What he finds out is that these blades are as good as every katana blade he has ever made or seen. He actually was kind of shocked to have such great blades found in the grave of a FARMER and a poor man!!! Now imagine the blade of a rich guy, be it a king or whatever! If you want to get further information, I can translate some paragraphes for you. Trust me, you will buy that line then!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 20:54:33 GMT
And by the way, if someone (Shootermike, hint, hint) wants to buy a blade from Arno Eckhart and does a review, then by all means, GO FOR IT! You're not going to find a better sword to spend 2000$. The prices start at 900$ for blunt reenactment swords and there is no limit upwarts. But even a simple replica costs about 1200$. At least that blade would outfight pretty much any Albion or such, but still... hefty prices. You get what you pay for!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 20:58:56 GMT
In case you were wondering, that's the name of the japanese smith: Yoshindo Yoshihara That's another guy involved in that project: T. Sasaki
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 21:06:50 GMT
Ha ha, of course the bottles I will be cutting are plastic. I can't imagine cutting glass, maybe shattering, but not cutting. Like I said, I am only going to be cutting light targets - PLASTIC water bottles, cardboard, pool noodles, if I get a chance tatami mats, etc. I will not deliberately hack away at tree limbs or old furniture. I am just afraid that daily bottle cutting will mean that my sword will break after a year or two, which is something I do not want. When I do get a real job, I am going to get a super high-end custom sword, and it will be better than a historical sword, although high priced. This is future planning.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 21:19:39 GMT
No ATrim, Tinker or Albion will break because of bottles, don't worry!! Super high-end custom? Sounds good, like said before, go to Arno Eckhart!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2009 21:52:50 GMT
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of the Valiant Armoury signature and practical lines.
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