|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 28, 2009 3:13:13 GMT
yeah, V.A. has been doing very exciting things ever since Sonny took over. I hope they will offer custom scabbards, that would be an excellent move.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 12:40:42 GMT
Maybe Sonny will look at this thread again. I know that he already did once. I will be slightly dissapointed if I can't get a custom scabbard for another sword, but it is understandable. I was hoping that I could get a scabbard for a 1313, but if I can't I might get a sword from VA instead. With their new models, and now the custom shop, VA is looking better and better. Tom K, I watched a lot of your YouTube videos. They were interesting. How would you compare one of your VA swords to one of your Atrim swords?
|
|
|
Post by enkidu on Jun 28, 2009 13:12:35 GMT
Valiant custom sword shop ? Very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by shadowhowler on Jun 28, 2009 16:57:21 GMT
Maybe Sonny will look at this thread again. I know that he already did once. I will be slightly dissapointed if I can't get a custom scabbard for another sword, but it is understandable. I was hoping that I could get a scabbard for a 1313, but if I can't I might get a sword from VA instead. With their new models, and now the custom shop, VA is looking better and better. Tom K, I watched a lot of your YouTube videos. They were interesting. How would you compare one of your VA swords to one of your Atrim swords? I know Tom's Favorite is his Atrim he got from Mike... but not far behind is his VA Long Sword... which I myself cut with and can say is a truely amazing weapon and WELL worth the 250-275 or so it would have cost new. I have not got around to cutting with my new Atrim Longsword... but it feels very similar in hand to Tom's... so I'm hopping it cuts as well as his does. If so, it's going to be a silly great cuter. The mythic '80%' is not hard and fast... but in my experince it's pretty close. I've handled a handful of true Atrim swords... even tho I currently only have one... and I've handled a handfull of VA swords, I currently own 3. I can say the VA swords are VERY close in performance to the Atrim swords... I dunno if it's 80%, but it's around there... very close in performance... ...but the PRICE is a stupid good deal. Here's the thing... take a sword like the Atrim 1313 and the Va Longsword. The two are almost identical in statistics, coming within an inch and an oz or two... and they feel very similar, ahndle very similar. Is the AT 1313 a better sword? Yes, I belive it is, by a small margin. However, it costs about 200 more... does not come with a scabbard, and has no options unless you want to pay more. The VA Longsword comes with a wood cored scabbard, and Sonny will work with customers on leather color... at the very least you have the option of black or brown. So the At1313 is a better sword, but the VA Longsword is, dollar for dollar, a better deal. At a certain point, the money you spend starts going less far.... for example.... a $1,000 sword is most liekly better then a $500 sword... but not TWICE as good, even tho it costs twice as much. Where as a $200 dollar sword ,ay well be twice as good as a $100 dollar sword. The more you spend, the better a sword you can get, but as you spend more, the dollar to performace ratio drops and you are spending more but getting less... in terms of pure performace... you see the money often in other places, like fit and finish, details, and so on. Thats certainly the case with Albions vs Atrims. So you have to decide... whats important to you, do you want the best possible sword you can get, do you want a great sword for a great deal, do you want a scabbard and belt for your sword... and so on.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 18:20:22 GMT
I want all of the above, lol. Don't worry, I am well aware that I can only get one. I am seriously thinking about just getting a VA sword, since it is a great deal. I am afraid that I might be dissapointed with the sword though. In Mike's video of him cutting with the 304S, the blade looks whippy to me. I don't know if that is common with swords or if it is just that particular one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 19:23:42 GMT
Well, Mike said HIS sword does have a hint of whippiness, but the three other ones he checked out were better. These also were from the first batch. I'm sure the ones you get now are better (not by much, of course, there's not much you could modify ;D).
I'm wondering though, how hard the blades are. Mike's blade is about 52-54 HRC, which is perfect, but he mentioned that the blades were originally thought to have about 45-48 HRC which is relatively soft. Del Tins have 50 HRC, and that is pretty much what you want. So did they make the swords from the second batch as hard as the first ones or did they change it?
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 28, 2009 19:37:08 GMT
Jonathan, I'm going to preface my opinion by saying that the V.A. Long Sword is the only long sword I have cut with (other than one try with Shadow howler's DSA Andruil) and Long Swords and Arming Swords are fairly different animals. the other thing I want you to consider is that as I understand it my V.A. Practical Longsword is significantly better than the usual Practical Long Sword (not sure if this applies to the new generation or not, the new generation sounds like it is better than the first, which mine is from)
Cutting impressions: My Atrim out cuts anything one handed, period. my V.A. Practical Arming Sword is a very good sword, but it doesn't even come close to my ATrim. Interestingly enough I have a Windlass arming sword (the Late Spanish model) that is a type XVIII (flattened diamond) that cut at about 75% to 85% as good as my Atrim. I think this is due to both of those swords being thin types and fairly heavy.
the V.A. Practical Long Sword is just SICK how well it cuts. if I use it in one hand it cuts better than anything I have other than my ATrim. I have only ever cut with one other longsword and I don't think it is fair to compare the DSA with the V.A. Practical but fair or not here goes.
the one DSA sword I cut with (note for Sean: I'm not counting the DSA Ranger) did not have a proper edge on it. it had a huge secondary bevel but was fairly sharp. I was able to cut tatami with it but just barely. it took a lot of effort. the handling on the DSA Andruil I swung was not even remotely comparable to the VA Practical Long. the VA long is fast and lively and seems to become a part of me, while the DSA Long felt like a lifeless bar of steel by comparison. I don't mean to rip on DSA, their swords are for an entirely different function, and audience than the VA Long, I just happen to like the VA long style.
something to think about: to my perspective the VA Long Sword is VERY flexible. so much so that I started a thread here to ask about sword flexibility. the thread is called "Whippy?". what I found out in that thread is that the sword I thought was very loose and flexible, many others thought was quite stiff. most notably Shooter Mike thought the VA Long Sword was VERY stiff and almost overbuilt. this tells me that a similar ATrim Longsword will likely be more flexible than my VA Long. the VA Long challenged my understanding of swords. when I first picked it up I didn't like it. once I started cutting with it I fell in love. the funny thing about the flexibility of the sword is this: I can pick it up with the flat pointing towards the ground and see the blade visibly sag a bit, and if I smack the pommel the blade wiggles like crazy, but the moment that sword hits a target it feels as solid as an I-beam.
another thing to think about: Reading Shadowhowlers opinion above makes the difference between the V.A. Longsword and true Atrims seem rather small. Reading Shooter Mike's opinion on the same swords makes the difference seem much greater. when I said the same swords, I meant the EXACT same sword at least when talking about my V.A. Long Sword. at least three forumites have swung that exact sword, maybe 5 (I think Bill Tsafa, and Adam Sharp might have handled it when they were at Mike's for their famous duel). my point here is this: the better swordsman will notice the difference more accutely. To Mike the difference is almost intollerable (I'm guessing based on how easily he let this sword go and various comments), while to Sean (Shadowhowler) the difference is only noticeable and not a problem. the difference is not the sword but the swordsman, I don't think Shadowhowler will be offended if I say Mike is a much better cutter than he is.
so the answer to this question of your (how much difference does this 20% make?) will really depend entirely on you. don't make the mistake of thinking that just because you are brand new to cutting that you will suck. many people find they have a natural aptitude, many find the body mechanics involved an utter mystery and can't cut to save their soul (until the train and practice a lot). I don't think any of us know where you are, probably including yourself. the one thing I DO know for sure is if you apply yourself you will improve no matter where you start from.
if you get a V.A. Long Sword of some type you will likely not have as much trouble getting your head wrapped around the fact that this is how a sword should feel while and Atrim will likely challenge you much more.
You will almost for sure enjoy cutting with either, and while you will probably not be of sufficient skill level to start with that there is any danger of you out-growing the V.A. Long Sword, it is a remote possibility. I would say Shooter Mike has out-grown the V.A. Long Swords. On the other hand I have a hard time imagining that you could possibly out-grow an Atrim Longsword. I don't think Mike has out-grown ATrim swords.
so I guess it comes down to how much you want to challenge yourself.
sorry this was so long but as I thought of one thing more and more thoughts came to surface. this is a very intersting topic and I can't wait to see what you get and what you think of it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 19:58:44 GMT
The decision is extremely difficult for me to make. When I heard about the VA custom sword shop I got excited and decided to just get a VA sword, be it a signature or a custom. Now that I think about the long run, I believe that I would rather have that extra 20% than a scabbard. I know that it might not sound worth me getting the 1313 for that 20%, but if I don't get the 1313 and I get a VA instead I will more than likely always wonder what I am missing out on. Getting a scabbard for the 1313 may be difficult, but I believe that it can be done in the future. If I choose to go with VA I will be stuck with whatever I get. There is always the possibility that I will never get the 1313 a scabbard, unless it is years later. If that proves to be the situation, I will be happy that my sword is top of the line. Maybe I won't be able to tell the difference between one of VA's swords and one of Mr. Trim's, but I have to take into account the fact that I might. As of now, I am going to get the 1313, scabbard or no. If I change my mind I will not be surprised.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 28, 2009 20:01:42 GMT
Now that I have seen Jonathan's comment on the AT 304 Mike used looking whippy, I think I wil reccomend the VA longswords to him as they will be easier to wrap his head around.
here's a link to the thread I mentioned about sword flexibility: /index.cgi?board=euromedieval&action=display&thread=9127 pay special attention to Shooter Mike's comments, especially when he figures out I'm talking about the Longsword and not the "was-a-1429"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 20:33:23 GMT
I read the entire thread, and I learned a few things. I really don't want to get a sword that is going to be droopy is I hold it with the flat parallel with the ground. Are the VA swords like this? I watched a video that was part of a review some guy named Chris did on the Kriegschwert, and it didn't appear to be really whippy. I just don't want something that will flop around like a noodle.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 28, 2009 20:59:36 GMT
Well, from my understanding, a lot of good long swords do just that. this is what I was talking about when I said a really good sword like an ATrim will chalenge your understanding of what a sword should be. the droop isn't big on my Practical Long but I noticed it right away. Ask Mike which ATrim swords are droopier than others. the important thing here is to note Mike's response in the whippy thread that most of his really good cutting Atrims would be considered whippy and undesireable because they are flexible enough to droop a little when held sideways. this interpretation takes a little reading between the lines but I believe it is true.
at this point you either need to decide to challenge yourself with an Atrim, or go safe and get the Kriegschwert. I think the Krieg will be stiff enough not to turn your stomach, but it will likely be pretty flexible too. that Practical Long Sword taught me a LOT about flexibility in swords and the "Whippy" thread confirmed it. I am now over the silly idea that a sword must be as stiff as an I-beam girder. I have come to accept that swords are not structural supports and flexibility is a good thing (Im almost through the stiff blade 12-step program; so proud!)
seriously, though a good cutting ATrim may be so flexible as to turn your stomach, but if you can accept that Mr. Trim has built an amazing sword for you and that this is how a sword should be then you will end up loving the ATrim. the trick is accepting that fact when you are new can be tough to do. just tell yourself that Angus Trim has studied many historical artifact swords and really understands them very well and he makes hi swords this way because that's how they were made in history.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 21:22:04 GMT
Now I am afraid to get a longsword at all. It seems like I will be unhappy with any longsword. If I get a good cutter if will be whippy. If I get a stiff longsword it won't cut good. I am really discouraged now. Maybe I just shouldn't get a longsword at all.
|
|
Marc Ridgeway
Member
Retired Global Moderator
"The best cost less when you buy it the first time." - Papabear
Posts: 3,122
|
Post by Marc Ridgeway on Jun 28, 2009 21:59:38 GMT
Now I am afraid to get a longsword at all. It seems like I will be unhappy with any longsword. If I get a good cutter if will be whippy. If I get a stiff longsword it won't cut good. I am really discouraged now. Maybe I just shouldn't get a longsword at all. My Angus Trim 1508 longsword is flexable but by no means whippy... and doesnt droop at all either.
|
|
|
Post by YlliwCir on Jun 28, 2009 22:39:47 GMT
I have a Valiant Armoury AT304S from the first run. Whippy is not a word that enters my mind in regard to it. It has about an inch of play in the tip from a firm pommel strike and hardly any droop when held parallel to the ground. Here's a vid. As for Mike's video, the slow motion shows a lot more movement of the blade than you'd probably notice in real time. It surprised me the first time I saw slow motion cutting. Then it occurred to me what might happen if a blade didn't flex like that. Might just break.
|
|
|
Post by shadowhowler on Jun 28, 2009 23:51:44 GMT
Tom made some very good points. Don't worry Tom, your comparasion is spot on... at Mikes level (also considering the varrious quality of swords he has worked with and handled vs what I have been able to have in hand) the difference between a true Atrim and a VA Sword will be MUCH more apparent. My Va Longsword is built very much likes Toms... and when held out to the side does 'droop' down just a bit, about an inch or so. Awhile ago I, Like Tom, would have considered this horrible, but as I handled more swords I came to a better understanding. I want a little flex in my cutting swords, less in thrusting swords. For example... the amount of flex in my VA longsword is just about right... whereas my DSA Gothic Two handed sword has no droop/flex when held, it's very stiff... but it's a dedicated thrusting sword. My VA arming sword is a bit stiffer then the Longsword... I suspect mostly because its shorter. Like Tom said tho... even tho the longsword has flex/droop... once it makes contact with the target it feels solid as a rock and cuts beautifuly. I guess if you have not handled and cut with a few swords... its going to be very, VERY hard to say what you will or won't like. Thats at least part of the reason why so many of us collect so many different swords... they are all different, feel and handle and perform differently.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2009 23:57:17 GMT
Update: After carefully considering my options for the past few hours while away from the forums, I have come to what I believe is a final decision. This entire time, from the beginning of my first post until now, I have been wanting the sword of all swords - the jack of all trades - having my cake and eating it too. I am now aware of the perfect solution. I will get TWO swords! These two swords will be the VA 304S and the VA Crusader. I will have a good hand and a half sword with a scabbard at a great price, and an equally good good single handed sword that looks beautiful, and comes with a beautiful scabbard and belt. Yes, I could get the 1313 and possibly a basic scabbard for the price of those two swords. But just like two heads are better than one, two VA swords will give me more variety than one Atrim sword. Sure, the 304S might not be as good as the 1313. The Crusader might not be as good either. However, two good swords, two good scabbards, and one good belt for the same (if not lower) price of the 1313 and a plain yet expensive scabbard is too good of a deal to pass on. Unfortunately, the Crusader has yet to be released. That means that I will have to wait a few months before I can have that. Fortunately, the 304S should be easy to obtain. Watching RicWilly's video only made me more confident in my master plan. I think that I will not be dissapointed with my decision. So the question now is this - What do YOU think?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2009 0:56:16 GMT
As the guy who wrote that review on the Krieg, and is holding it in his hands as he types this (which is not easy, let me tell you), I can assure you that there is no hint of droop as I hold it parallel to the ground. Not even when I shake it.
Ok. I'm putting the sword down now before I cut off my nose. I read somewhere that the Krieg and the 304s share the same blade. I am doubting this as the Krieg is substantially heavier and from what others are saying the 304s seems more flexible than the Krieg. I do not have access to both to compare.
Point to remember is that when cutting through a target a sword must flex or it will shatter. One of the important properties of a sword is flex. That keeps it from breaking. That is the "whippiness" you see in Mike's video. He even commented that he didn't notice the flex until he was editing the video. From all accounts the 304s is not overly flexible or whippy.
Congrats on a decision. The 304s and The Crusader are fantastic blades. I think this is the best way for you to go. These two swords, I think, are perfect for you at this time and probably for the near future. You will want more swords, but these two will hold you until you are able to afford more.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2009 1:03:48 GMT
I personally think that I will be pleased with these two swords. They should definately be more than enough until I can afford more. Make no mistake, this is simply the beginning of my journey. I wanted to make sure that I will be able to look back to this time when I am old and say, "Ah yes, and what you see now is my first sword. It is a humble (insert name here), nothing particularly special, but when I first got it I was the happiest boy on the face of the earth. I can remember cutting up all sorts of objects with it in my youthful days, etc. etc." I believe that I shall be pleased with my first purchases. Now I just have to wait two or three weeks. I could order one of them now, seeing as I have enough money, but I want to wait until I am done working first.
|
|
|
Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jun 29, 2009 3:32:56 GMT
Well, I was wondering if this would be the direction you eventually turned and I think you have made a great decision.
V.A. swords are excellent, no doubts there. I'm quite certain you are going to be very happy with them.
A thought: if your money comes sooner rather than later and you don't want to wait for the crusader you could get the Kriegschwert and the AT 303 practical arming sword. if your heart is set on the design of the Crusader then wait and get that, it will be worth it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2009 5:33:51 GMT
I think your choice is excellent, and I know what it's like to try to settle on one final choice in something like that. For each of the swords I bought it took me a month or two of looking around, reading reviews, and comparing prices before I was able to make a final decision and actually order one. I guess even if it's a bit of a pain it's always better to take your time when deciding on something expensive, since you really don't want to make a mistake.
|
|