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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 12:11:55 GMT
Hello my fellow sword swinging lunatics,
The true purpose of a sword is to cut and preferably kill human beings. That's why we take many precautions not to accidently kill ourselves.
Anyways, European or Asian, swords exsist for the purpose of killing people. What are the best targets that give you a response when cutting as if cutting a human target?
I know that tatami omote are claimed to give a good likewise response. So what are the scales on this? I thought about this for some time and came with the following table:
You succesfully cut:
Half mats: You can kill a man by cutting soft spots like the neck and bowels.
Full mats: You can succesfully disembowel a man or cut of an arm.
Double mats: You can succesfully cut of a man' head or a leg.
Four mats: You can succesfully cut a man in half through the waist.
Any ideas about these scales? Or maybe suggestions to better targets/alternatives?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 13:22:47 GMT
I think it is seven mats for the hardest cut of all, through the hip bones.
Three mats to cut through the neck because you have to make allowances for the spine. Three mats to disembowel someone as well or cut off an arm if the cut is placed appropriately.
Half mats are probably even too much depending on which area of the body you strike. A cut to the carotid artery would be like cutting paper. A stab to the kidneys would probably be like going through polystyrene. Half mats are probably the equivalent of severing the foot or wrist.
Four mats would be a kesagiri cut from should to hip.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 13:33:57 GMT
Tatami omote(soaked), single mat wrapped around a 1" diametre GREEN bamboo shoot is my 'Arm simulator'. 2 or 3 soaked mats wrapped around a 1.5"- 2" diametre GREEN bamboo shoot is my 'leg simulator'. If you are going to cut at a beef carcass say, always make sure it hasn't been cooked or highly smoked as I have found in the past this tends to harden the bones and most production blades I have tried cutting them with tend to chip. I used to make 'reed men'(yes, men out of riverreed) that were about 1500mm high but it took so long to make them and it was so quick to cut them up, I soon got tired of that. An oldy but a goody,for timing and placement. Try throwing an apple into the air and cutting it then replacing the blade in its saya, before the pieces hit the ground.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 14:54:03 GMT
If you're really determined and have the money and resources, I suppose you could go the Mythbusters route; Get some bones and ballistics gel and mold it into a dude :F
Although I think that might be kinda gross, I suppose it should feel a lot like the real thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 15:05:43 GMT
The only problem with the oldy but goody is getting apple juice in your saya.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 11, 2009 16:30:52 GMT
I've been doing some pretty heavy cutting lately. bamboo, tatami wrapped around bamboo, etc. and while it is greatly satisfying some thoughts have occured to me.
there's no need to cut through the bone in many cases. cutting TO the bone will in most cases deliver a fatal or incapacitating wound. I mean once the blade bites bone the muscles, tendons and blood vesels have all been severed. your victim is going to die from ruptured internal organs or blood loss, bone are nothing more than structural support. the quicket way to disable a crane is not to cut through the boom arm, but rather to cut the cable. you see?
mind you, it is wicked cool to send a leg, arm, or head spinning off to one side, and it's certainly effective, but in order to do that you really have to deliver a powerful, accurate, and well executed blow. in a fight you seldom have the opportunity to deliver such perfect blows.
if you can cut through a double roll of tatami I'd think you can cut enough flesh to impart mortal wounds on any human. I'd say the same is likely true of single roll tatami omote, but that's a bit less clear cut. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 16:54:27 GMT
Hm, so what would cutting 3 tatami omote mats with a 1 and half inch bamboo be equivalent too? I saw konrad on youtube cut it...and that was a nukitsuke cut! Does that mean he can chop my head off with nukitsuke?
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 11, 2009 17:06:37 GMT
yup, I'd say that's pretty much what it means. I saw that too, but wasn't it hardwood dowels not bamboo? not that, that's any less impressive. that was some great cutting in that vid.
even if he didn't take your head clean off (I bet it would though), I'd think that your juguler (spelling?) would be severed along with your windpipe, ligaments, tendons, etc. the spinal chord doesn't HAVE to be severed to kill at the neck, but it sure does speed things up.
Also, there's been some reasonable speculation that a freshly slaughtered pig would be a good simulator. this has also given rise to talks of an SBG BBQ/pig-roast. so far nothing has come of it.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 11, 2009 17:13:39 GMT
yup, I'd say that's pretty much what it means. I saw that too, but wasn't it hardwood dowels not bamboo? not that, that's any less impressive. that was some great cutting in that vid. even if he didn't take your head clean off (I bet it would though), I'd think that your juguler (spelling?) would be severed along with your windpipe, ligaments, tendons, etc. the spinal chord doesn't HAVE to be severed to kill at the neck, but it sure does speed things up. Also, there's been some reasonable speculation that a freshly slaughtered pig would be a good simulator. this has also given rise to talks of an SBG BBQ/pig-roast. so far nothing has come of it. the Cold Steel Extreme Sword Proof DVD shows some cuts on pig carcases. I was especially impressed by the cuts to the pig's forehead.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 11, 2009 17:38:59 GMT
I concur on the tatami with a center piece. Since I have no access whatsoever to bamboo, I use 1-inch diameter hardwood dowels. They are very dense and when soaked with the mat, seem to be just slightly less difficult to cut than equivalent size bone (based on past experience cutting fresh meat with bones and skin still in place...).
I would propose 1-inch dowel with one roll to simulate the upper arm of a beefy opponent. 1.5-inch diameter dowel with two mats for the upper leg of a powerfully built opponent. And I'm still not sure about what would properly represent a neck with spinal column...
Just my thoughts...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2009 18:53:55 GMT
I know that, with Seppuku the guy chopping of the head aims between the spinal cord bones. But I don't think that would be feasible in a fight. The marrow inside the spinal cord is protected by thick bone. The spinal cord is in essence what keeps a man upright so I guess that next to the thy bones these would be hardest to cut.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2009 9:55:43 GMT
Actually it's the achilles tendon that keeps the body up, cut that and your opponent is a marionette flopping around with the strings cut.
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Post by brotherbanzai on Mar 12, 2009 22:37:36 GMT
I think that if you're simulating cutting into an opponent, it might be good to keep in mind that getting your sword stuck part way through a cut could be disastrous. I think you would want to always either cut all the way through or cut, slice, and recover. I believe there are many cases of real duels in which both combatants died because guy A delivers a killing blow to guy B but guy B doesn't just fall over dead right away and stabs guy A while guy A's sword is stuck in guy B. Just an opinion you may want to add in to your calculations.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 12, 2009 23:23:10 GMT
Absolutely. in fact I'm pretty sure there are documented duels where the guy who won died later of infected wounds. not quite the same thing, I know, but I'm sure what you said happened too. it just stands to logic. so yeah, you gotta make sure you get out of the way after a good cut connects.
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Post by ShooterMike on Mar 13, 2009 0:22:59 GMT
Oh yeah!!! Couldn't agree more. This was impressed upon me long ago by a close friend who was a police officer in the barrio area of a nearby city. Knives were the norm for the Mexican gangs of that area and time. He responded to calls of knife fights on a very regular basis, almost every week. He said he lost count of the times he responded to fights in which both combatants had died of knife wounds they'd placed on each other by the time he arrived.
The telling story was when he arrived and was able to interview the surviving "winner" and find out what the fight had been about... just before he died of his wounds.
So, I am a big proponent of training to land clean blows with the sword that either severe and don't get entangled, or slice and disengage. Both while moving laterally away, out of range...or straight into grappling.
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Mar 13, 2009 1:31:00 GMT
I think that if you're simulating cutting into an opponent, it might be good to keep in mind that getting your sword stuck part way through a cut could be disastrous. I think you would want to always either cut all the way through or cut, slice, and recover. I believe there are many cases of real duels in which both combatants died because guy A delivers a killing blow to guy B but guy B doesn't just fall over dead right away and stabs guy A while guy A's sword is stuck in guy B. Just an opinion you may want to add in to your calculations. Very, very true. But if a man keeps his wits, he'll realize the ramifications of his blow, release his weapon, and dodge. I know this rarely actually happens, and in a fight 30 seconds is quite a long time, still, facts can't be argued. Plus, chances are your opponent will try to remove the object, causing more internal damage. edit; sorry for the hi-jack
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2009 23:23:23 GMT
This post was none sense! I deleted it myself before I insult my sword.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Mar 14, 2009 1:03:25 GMT
You forgot half mats. One half mat is about 1 human wrist, whereas I belive 1 full mat is an ankle. However, I'm not sure about the ankle... I hope this helps! -Slayer
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 14, 2009 1:59:09 GMT
How do we arive at these "human neck = x size wooden dowel and y many tatami mats"? this is silly. have any of you cut a human body? for that matter how many of you have cut tatami or tatami with a dowel or bamboo in it? I don't wanna be a jerk here but come on let's at least be honest with ourselves: WE DON'T KNOW!
I have cut tatami with and without dowels and/or bamboo and let me tell you all something: ONE tatami with a 1 inch bamboo stick in the middle is a very HARD cut. if you don't think so watch my videos. I'm not yelling out kiais because it was easy.
out of curiosity though, please do post what sort of targets you have cut. otherwise I just don't see how you have any right to say how much tatami is equal to what body part.
I have cut up to double rolls of Mugen Dachi Tatami Omote and single rolls with 1-1.5 inch bamboo inside. I have cut through a single roll with a 1 inch hard wood dowel in it. I have also cut all the way through a 4x4 (on the end and with the grain) and I have cut a variety of water bottles. I have no idea how tatami compares to flesh but I have cut myself open pretty effortlessly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 2:20:34 GMT
Tom, you are right. I collected what these guys posted but this will lead no where. The best way is to get carcasses and tatami's together and test, test, and test. Which is exactly what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna order in a big heap of mats tomorow. I've tried my fair share of cuts and I can't say if I could cut x-part of a body even if it's just a simulated target. They say pigs are pretty similar to humans in bone, flesh and skin. I'm gonna go to the butchers and ask what kind of stuff they discard/don't use.
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