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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 2:23:22 GMT
Expect vids.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 14, 2009 2:54:41 GMT
How do we arive at these "human neck = x size wooden dowel and y many tatami mats"? this is silly. have any of you cut a human body? for that matter how many of you have cut tatami or tatami with a dowel or bamboo in it? I don't wanna be a jerk here but come on let's at least be honest with ourselves: WE DON'T KNOW! I have cut tatami with and without dowels and/or bamboo and let me tell you all something: ONE tatami with a 1 inch bamboo stick in the middle is a very HARD cut. if you don't think so watch my videos. I'm not yelling out kiais because it was easy. out of curiosity though, please do post what sort of targets you have cut. otherwise I just don't see how you have any right to say how much tatami is equal to what body part. I have cut up to double rolls of Mugen Dachi Tatami Omote and single rolls with 1-1.5 inch bamboo inside. I have cut through a single roll with a 1 inch hard wood dowel in it. I have also cut all the way through a 4x4 (on the end and with the grain) and I have cut a variety of water bottles. I have no idea how tatami compares to flesh but I have cut myself open pretty effortlessly. Tom during the Meiji period , trials were conducted to determine targets of rice straw and bamboo that were equivilant to human body parts ... these were done by men that had the benefit of cutting both... SO ... while we may never have cut cadavers, and some of these folk may be talking a bit out of the side of their neck , rather than from actual experience , there is indeed factual basis for the target/ bodypart equivilent... I'm not one to get into show me yours and I'll show you mine contests ... but I've cut some pretty hard targets... and it is my opinion that technique and form trump brute force... At any rate , though some of these folks probably haven't cut tatami or bodies... the equivilents were worked out long ago by men that cut both, and that information is out there , if one chooses to look for it... Myself... I just like pushing boundries and trying new targets that will improve specific skills ... I may use one target to train for tip speed , another for control, and another for edge allignment... and I'm always experimenting with new targets... Since I will never cut a human body, I have no real concern with equating targets with flesh... rather than perfecting killing , I just try to tweak my skills.... SO really . while we don't know from personal experience , we just trust to tradition .. as we do woth all our training because its doubtful any of us will ever test our mettle in real sword combat...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 4:46:59 GMT
I have cut many different types of targets, including ones that would offend the wider community which is why I won't list them (I have not cut through any cadavers or live humans). My comments were from the type of mats I have cut and the different resistances that my sensei and I have tried. I have also cut through many of the harder targets (one day I'd like to try the steel cutting that is one of the japanese tests). I have never split firewood with a sword but I have seen others do it (I consider that sort of behaviour gross abuse). So what I know of the ancient practices and resistances and my own investigations that is where my comments came from.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 11:34:16 GMT
I still think it's best to do our own field tests but I will look up on those Meji era results and use them as basis. If one thing didn't change all those years then it must be human anatomy so. There might still be a difference between Meji era tamahagane katana and my modern 1045 and 9260 steel katana, actualy I'm pretty sure there is.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Mar 14, 2009 11:48:57 GMT
Marc, I agree with you 100% on all points. I was aware of the testing that was done by people who had cut both but I did not believe the equations here were drawn from those tests. this also brings to bear the question of how does out tatami today compare to what they had back then? are we using different materials because they are cheaper? do the machines that mass produce tatami today weave them tighter or looser than ones done by hand? there's a whole mess of factors that just mean we can't be sure. I like to push limits too and I agree 100% that form trumps power every time. I'm also quite sure that my form is nowhere near as good as yours, but I'm improving. ;D maybe someday I'll catch up to you. better stay sharp Marc, I'm comming.
the thing about different targets and tweeking skills is exactly what I was driving at. we should hopefully never need to cut a human so I'm more concerned about what sort of skill I need to cut a particular target.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 12:08:47 GMT
The art of War is to kill an opponent. Not to practice for that means you are not practicing the art of War or tameshigiri. In fact it is deviating from the true path.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 14, 2009 13:07:34 GMT
Sorry swordnut... we disagree These days budo is more about growth, and the relentless pursuit of perfection... To claim to be training to kill just sounds... immature.. (IMO) If you really want to train to kill, infantry military training with modern weapons is your " true way"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 13:40:49 GMT
Excellent advice Marc. I also think that tameshigiri, while undoubtly fun and all, is only a SMALL part of training to use a sword. I consider it something of an addendum to my training. I couldn't agree more Off to class.....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 14:07:28 GMT
One thing I've been wondering is how much clothing would affect a cut. Say someone is wearing a linen shirt and thick wool coat, or the Asian equivalent. How much more effort/skill, if any, does that take to cut through?
Cheers
Marc E
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 15:21:38 GMT
Sorry swordnut... we disagree These days budo is more about growth, and the relentless pursuit of perfection... To claim to be training to kill just sounds... immature.. (IMO) If you really want to train to kill, infantry military training with modern weapons is your " true way" I just think that the sword in your hand should be treated as such, a weapon meant for its purpose. If you don't then you might as well stick to bokkens. All else is a farce. We didn't buy swords from a seller who sell *real* swords because we hate the purpose of the sword. Or because we don't like it being able to cut its intended target. Lest we be lying to ourselves of course.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 16:49:26 GMT
Hello my fellow sword swinging lunatics, The true purpose of a sword is to cut and preferably kill human beings. That's why we take many precautions not to accidently kill ourselves. Anyways, European or Asian, swords exsist for the purpose of killing people. What are the best targets that give you a response when cutting as if cutting a human target? I know that tatami omote are claimed to give a good likewise response. So what are the scales on this? I thought about this for some time and came with the following table: You succesfully cut: Half mats: You can kill a man by cutting soft spots like the neck and bowels. Full mats: You can succesfully disembowel a man or cut of an arm. Double mats: You can succesfully cut of a man' head or a leg. Four mats: You can succesfully cut a man in half through the waist. Any ideas about these scales? Or maybe suggestions to better targets/alternatives? You would have to have done both (tatami and human) in order to evaluate these with authority. Since I haven't done this, I will not comment.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 16:51:18 GMT
Tom during the Meiji period , trials were conducted to determine targets of rice straw and bamboo that were equivilant to human body parts ... these were done by men that had the benefit of cutting both... Please share your source. It would be good to have authorative information.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 14, 2009 17:45:43 GMT
Tom during the Meiji period , trials were conducted to determine targets of rice straw and bamboo that were equivilant to human body parts ... these were done by men that had the benefit of cutting both... Please share your source. It would be good to have authorative information. Soory , can't help you ... the testing was done .. and as I said the information is availiable out there if you choose to research and find it... As I stated , I am not at all interested in cutting human equivilent targets , so I have not archived the information... For those interested , I imagine an hour with google and a few keywords would give you a great starting place to find the info you desire...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 18:18:47 GMT
Linen shirt or thick wool coat, it won't matter to a katana, but I am only talking about katana here.
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Marc Ridgeway
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Post by Marc Ridgeway on Mar 14, 2009 18:50:19 GMT
Linen shirt or thick wool coat, it won't matter to a katana, but I am only talking about katana here. I agree I just cut some canvas the other day... and it offered the resistance of air....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2009 19:09:31 GMT
If you are good enough and you can hit the seams then it will have even less resistance. You only have to start worrying about resistance when you move into hard plastics or metals.
Marc: You have to roll canvas to an extreme degree for their to be resistance. A katana will cut through even a gambeson like no ones business.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2009 5:54:31 GMT
On the issue of clothing, I was thinking about warping up some mats around a wooden dowel and warping the mat with an expendable shirt to see how much resistence something like that would give. Might give it a try next week.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 11:51:13 GMT
Linen shirt or thick wool coat, it won't matter to a katana, but I am only talking about katana here. I agree I just cut some canvas the other day... and it offered the resistance of air.... Was the canvas wrapped around a target? How did you cut it? Marc E
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2009 16:57:13 GMT
I have Obata sensei's book on Tameshigiri, as well as am ebook by him on Toyama ryu. He started out as a sword-tester, using straw bundles. Even he had never tested on human targets. I have to look at the text, but I don't think he delineates a point where both simulators had been tested by one person. I'm not saying yea or nay, mind you. All I'm saying is that the heritage could be clearer, and what most of us tell each other may just be myth and rumor. We do know that if Japanese homes never used tatami mats, this would probably never be used as a testing medium. Certainly if the mats were not made by machine, they'd be too expensive to cut.
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