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Post by enderdart on Jul 21, 2024 12:45:38 GMT
Lately I've been really into Napoleonic sabres. While I'm digging into KoA (since they provide the most comprehensive sword specifications), I've been wondering what the most important parameters to consider in a sabre are. For example, I've been looking at these two sabres. Based on their specifications, which one would be more comfortable to handle? And what stats should I consider?
sabre 1:
- Overall Length: 43 1/2''
- Blade Length: 37''
- Weight: 3 lb 1.7 oz
- Width: 28.7 mm
- Thickness: 7.3 mm - 3.4 mm
- P.O.B: 6 1/8''
- Grip Length: 4 5/8''
- Blade [EN9 High Carbon Steel]
sabre 2: - Overall Length: 44 1/8''
- Blade Length: 38'
- Weight: 2 lb 10.6 oz
- Width: 31 mm
- Thickness: 5.5 mm - 3.6 mm
- P.O.B: 7 1/8''
- Grip Length: 4 5/8''
- Blade [EN9 High Carbon Steel]
EDIT: Another thing regarding the scabbard. I've noticed that many replicas have a leather scabbard (without specifying a wooden core). I remember reading somewhere that some chemicals used in leather treatment can damage the blade. Is this true? Or can I safely store my sabre in the leather scabbard without any issues?
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 14:05:22 GMT
Honestly, nobody can tell you what you will like better. Personally I need lighter single handed swords. I'd say the lower one will feel lighter but not light by any means, at that PoB and weight either will be a pretty heavy beastie single handed. If the curve on the blade is not the same, that can also make it feel differently, with more curved generally feeling more maneuverable but not necessarily "better". If you want to have fun using it, at that PoB it would need to be below 1kg/2,2lbs - again, that's me. What sabers are they if you don't mind telling? EN9 is a bit of a red flag since there are quite a few "sword like objects" made in this steel and they feel just like sharpened crowbars.
Yes, some leather can be quite agressive, not so much depending on the technique (chrome vs vegetable tan) but how well the chemicals have been washed out. Also the leather will suck up a lot of oil in the beginning when it's new, so oil often at first. It can clean off the oil where it contacts and lead to rust (but so can a steel scabbard if there is dry rust or dirt inside). Generally with a leather sheath you need to oil more regularly than with steel. I had massive problems with leather in the beginning where the blade began rusting within a week, but after it has been saturated with oil/petroleum jelly at the spots where the blade makes contact I haven't had any problems. Although long time storage is another matter. A few months in leather, yes, for years long storage steel is better. I had a bit of trouble with one of my steel scabbards and rust lately so that's by no means a sure thing either. I think the how you protect the blade matters a big deal as well, for me petroleum jelly mixed with mineral oil worked best, long term wax works best. But some firearms lubricants also have a cult following, as does car wax. Renaissance Wax is more divisive, and nobody knows why. Works extremely well for some, not at all for others.
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 21, 2024 15:06:59 GMT
EN9 steel is often used by Universal Swords, I assume your sabers are made by them. It's not a bad steel but Universal Swords heat treats it on the soft side which means tough but not holding an edge very well. Sabers are long blades on a short hilt without a pommel, that means blade heavy in principle. If you want a good handling saber it shouldn't be too heavy over all (speaks fo saber 2) Also good distal taper and deep fullers help. A saber with more than 2,5 lb really needs a good distal taper and deep fullers for an acceptable handling. PoB closer to the hilt is a hint (speaks a bit for saber 1) Look up reviews of Universal Swords, best yours if you can find them. What they say about the handling. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/35017/sbg-sword-review-indexwww.sword-buyers-guide.com/scimitars.html
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Post by eastman on Jul 21, 2024 15:26:40 GMT
I've started moving to Birchwood Casey Barricade for long term rust protection (new name on a product which has been used for many years)
I'm wondering if the people who have problems with Renaissance Wax bought their can on Amazon and really got a counterfeit product
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Post by enderdart on Jul 21, 2024 16:09:52 GMT
Thank you for the answer. I should be more precise. My question is more about how blade thickness and width affect weight distribution. For example, assuming we have two blades with the same weight and curvature, one broader and the other narrower, which should be more agile?
Regarding the blade material, I'd buy the sabre from a European seller who states the sabres are from Universal Swords with an AISI 1065 carbon steel blade.
thanks a lot for the sword review index!
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 21, 2024 16:23:08 GMT
It's the mass and where it is. You want it near the hilt, not at the tip. A broader blade could have more mass in the upper half of the blade. But if it's broad and thin and/or fullered there can be less mass than a narrow thick blade has. If you have an identical mass distribution on the blades there should be no difference between the broad and the narrow blade. As I said before, the PoB closer to the hilt is better for handling (saber 1), but with too much weight over all or the PoB too far outside the sword with the better PoB can have a bad handling nevertheless (also saber 1).
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 16:32:13 GMT
Another thing: Don't fixate too much on what they write on the sales page, this can be off by a lot depending on how lucky you are. There is a set of Universal French Officer sabers on KoA, one with brass one with leather sheath, the data for the swords is quite different, I bet these aren't different sword models just two different sword were measured.
And yes, I am not saying the steel is bad just that this steel is used by Deepeeka and Universal swords. My point is both don't make the most authentic feeling swords.
The PoB does reflect distal taper and fullers, a 1kg/2,2lbs sword with a 18cm/7" PoB will feel equally heavy, if it has fullers and taper or not, but both might change how the blade itself feels while moving it, like feeling stiffer or more flexible. Something with no distal taper will feel a bit off unless it is a very stiff blade.
I have 2 sets of very similar swords and a difference of 2,5cm/1" in PoB equals about 100g in weight difference (EDIT: This only works with very similar blades), so I doubt the 1" PoB difference is enough for the 1st to feel lighter unless the blade shape is different. EDIT2: At that blade length though you definately feel the weight a lot more than if it was only a 30" blade no matter the balance of it.
I'm wondering if the people who have problems with Renaissance Wax bought their can on Amazon and really got a counterfeit product Could be, or old stock where the solvents are gone. Could also be a hot climate, where the solvents evaporate before the application process is finished - I guess this because RenWax manufacturer says you should not heat the object beforehand, although on some more porous surfaces it seems to work better heated (say some who apply it to sculptures).
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Post by takitam on Jul 21, 2024 17:22:34 GMT
In general: - the heavier it is ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) - the longer it is - the less distal taper it has - the farther out PoB is the more unwieldy it will be. I would not buy any of the replica sabres from your op. They are extremely heavy and most likely have horrible and historically inaccurate distal taper. Swinging a metal rod will probably not feel much different. Examples of very heavy historical cavalry cutting sabres weigh 1-1.2kg. Some of them were were called wristbreakers in their time and had a horrible reputation. Others were praised for their performance. They usually start 8-9mm thick at the hilt and taper very quickly at first, and then more slowly to around 1.5-2mm close to the tip. And they hit like a truck, but they require a very strong hand. Keep in mind, these are cavalry military sabres. They were never intended for finesse fencing, but there was a lot of finesse and thought in their design and mass distribution. All of this is missing from modern replicas. If you want a sabre that is nimble in the hand, you should focus more on replicas of XVII century civilian examples (or officer versions from the Napoleonic period) and expect it to weigh 600-750g. Something to keep in mind is that civilian and military sabres (or cavalry and infantry) may look similar, but they can feel extremely different in hand. Some civilian ones will feel like a feather and respond to wrist movements, while the heavier military ones are only good for full arm cuts. I would recommend hunting for some originals from the Napoleonic period. Do your due diligence first, as apparently it is a minefield filled with fakes. Gain knowledge first, buy later. There are several extremely informative threads about historical sabres on the forum. Final edit: Based on the stats you posted, these seem to be straight bladed thrusting swords with sabre hilts. Something very different from cutting sabres. I have never handled this type of a weapon, but I would not expect them to be nimble at all.
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AndiTheBarvarian
Member
"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 10,124
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 21, 2024 17:41:08 GMT
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 17:41:47 GMT
In general: - the heavier it is ![;)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) - the longer it is - the less distal taper it has - the farther out PoB is the more unwieldy it will be. I would not buy any of the replica sabres from your op. They are extremely heavy and most likely have horrible and historically inaccurate distal taper. Swinging a metal rod will probably not feel much different. Examples of very heavy historical cavalry cutting sabres weigh 1-1.2kg. Some of them were were called wristbreakers in their time and had a horrible reputation. Others were praised for their performance. They usually start 8-9mm thick at the hilt and taper very quickly at first, and then more slowly to around 1.5-2mm close to the tip. And they hit like a truck, but they require a very strong hand. Keep in mind, these are cavalry military sabres. They were never intended for finesse fencing, but there was a lot of finesse and thought in their design and mass distribution. All of this is missing from modern replicas. If you want a sabre that is nimble in the hand, you should focus more on replicas of XVII century civilian examples and expect it to weigh 600-750g. Something to keep in mind is that civilian and military sabres (or cavalry and infantry) may look similar, but they can feel extremely different in hand. Some civilian ones will feel like a feather and respond to wrist movements, while the heavier military ones are only good for full arm cuts. I would recommend hunting for some originals from the Napoleonic period. Do your due diligence first, as apparently it is a minefield filled with fakes. Gain knowledge first, buy later. There are several extremely informative threads about historical sabres on the forum. There are a few good replicas though, there are two for the 1796 that come pretty close. Also generally the cavalry version is the heaviert, the officer and infantry version the lighter for the military sabers.
I haven't seen any saber repro under 700g, also no civillian ones, can you tell us if you know of one?
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Post by takitam on Jul 21, 2024 17:51:11 GMT
There are a few good replicas though, there are two for the 1796 that come pretty close. Also generally the cavalry version is the heaviert, the officer and infantry version the lighter for the military sabers.
I haven't seen any saber repro under 700g, also no civillian ones, can you tell us if you know of one?
I haven't seen the new Windlass 1796 replicas. I don't know of any light repros, sorry. Custom order is probably the only way to get one. AFAIK, the general consensus among sabre collectors is that, at least for XIX century, forget about repros and buy originals. They are still affordable.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 17:55:52 GMT
Even the 1796 isn't a nimble fencing sword though. Not that the blade shape would be conducive to that either.
37,4"; blade 32,4"; Weight 870g/1,9lbs; PoB 18cm/7,1"
Cuts like a beast, but since there is no counter weight it feels like you are moving just a blade. I am not that in love with it to be honest.
There are a ton of video reviews, alientude for example has one.
EDIT: Universal swords has a beautifully etched 1796... Almost worth it
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Post by pellius on Jul 21, 2024 18:14:44 GMT
IMHO, the most important stat to affect handling is the distal taper. AFAIK, no Napoleonic repros get this right. As a reference point, member bas has very graciously provided a comprehensive library of historical sword stats. Very worthwhile reading: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/62457/sword-measurementsAs an example, he lists an ANXI saber as having a distal taper of 10.1mm to 1.9 mm. The taper is also non-linear. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/post/839692My anecdotal experience has been that 19C Euro cav trooper sabers have a forte thickness of 9mm or more and a foible under 2mm. The stat examples you provided will yield poor handling in comparison. Originals are way way better for only a modest price premium. Repros have their place for display, reenactment, etc., but when it comes to handling, originals really are the only way to go. From your post, I can’t tell what model you are considering. At 44” oal, it would seem to be a cav trooper, though. As always, when it comes to a big cav saber with excellent handling, by far the best bargain out there is (imho) the first gen French made French 1822 heavy cav saber. They are telepathic in the hand, especially considering their size. Since they were unloved in their day and not historically influential, they boast a very reasonable price today. fwiw
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 18:24:45 GMT
LK Chen has an M1860 now which should also be pretty close to original, they copied a specific example, ant their "Beiyang (German M1889) dragon cavalry saber 1895–1928" doesn't look bad as well.
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Post by enderdart on Jul 21, 2024 19:59:35 GMT
From your post, I can’t tell what model you are considering. At 44” oal, it would seem to be a cav trooper, though. As always, when it comes to a big cav saber with excellent handling, by far the best bargain out there is (imho) the first gen French made French 1822 heavy cav saber. Unfortunately, buying original weapons in Italy right now is impossible for me . So, I'm stuck looking at replicas (and I know finding something truly accurate in both handling and appearance for around €200 is almost impossible). The two sabres I'm considering are The Garde du Corps du Roi, and The Artillery Officer's Sabre(personally, I've never seen an original one except in artwork) (maybe is used by mounted artillery officers?) Both replicas have a Montmorency-style blade with a slight curve (Idk why but I always prefer curved blades!). The price is around €200 and they seem decent. If someone knows more about the artillery one pls let me know
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jul 21, 2024 20:22:32 GMT
Sabers. The lightest is heavy, #1 is too heavy.
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 20:23:24 GMT
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Post by enderdart on Jul 21, 2024 20:24:34 GMT
Yes, it seems like a good sabre. In my opinion, the guard is not entirely correct. The only original AN XI copy sabre I've ever handled is an 1814 Piemontese cavalry sabre. It is not only fantastic to handle, but also has guard bars that are more curved and cover the hand a bit more. However, looking at the pictures of this reproduction, the other two bars are more in line with the main one and do not cover the hand. Maybe I'm wrong. I also recently bought an Mle F1 sabre. The guard is almost like the Piemontese one, but unfortunately, I had to send it back because the blade was bent starting from the forte, and the sabre got stuck in the scabbard while inserting it. ![:(](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/sad.png)
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Post by mrstabby on Jul 21, 2024 20:40:10 GMT
Sorry, what does Mle stand for?
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Post by pellius on Jul 21, 2024 20:45:58 GMT
Photos, links, or a more specific country and model year will help.
Original Napoleonic period sabers are indeed quite expensive.
I would say buy the one you like the look of. Handling it will give you valuable experience in what you personally prefer.
€200 for a good looking repro seems to be a pretty decent price.
Whatever you choose, please share your experience and impressions with the forum.
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