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Post by bwaze on Jan 22, 2024 18:05:56 GMT
In Alientude's review of Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser from May 2023 I first heard that Peter Johnsson, smith that designs swords for Albion, called very close similarities between Albion Knecht and Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser "plagiarism". Albion Knecht isn't based on any surviving messer, so it's not reasonable for other maker to end up with almost identical design in terms of blade length, curvature, thicknesses, fuller length, overall sword proportions, even if the copy has some obvious changes thrown in in several parts like a different crossguard shape, a bit different nagel shape (but still the same proportions)...
David Weiss of Kult of Athena (that own the Balaur Arms) admitted their model is "too close for comfort" to Albion Knecht, blamed it all on previous owners of Kult of Athena (he's the owner only from November 2020), and promised to stop the production of this model and to redesign their messer. I haven't seen the same debate about Balaur Arms Alexandria and Albion Alexandria - Alientude's video shows Peter Johnsson's posts about differences between copying XVIIIc "Alexandria" swords from museums vs. directly copying Albion Alexandria (which, since it is not Museum Line sword, isn't a direct reproduction of a specific original, but "an outcome of a study of several originals in a number of museums and a private collection". I didn't think this applied to Balaur Arms Alexandria, since it is quite different to Albion Alexandria in many stats, proportions etc. Image from Skallagrim's review of Balaur Arms Alexandria: I've seen now that Kult of Athena has removed all Balaur Arms swords in their listings that were not produced by LK Chen, and also some new models - Kriegsmesser (as announced), but also Alexandria. So, is it just out of stock and removed from site for that reason (although they usually just label it as out of stock), or is it discontinued? Link to Alientude Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser review:
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Post by alientude on Jan 22, 2024 18:08:50 GMT
I personally wouldn't read too much into it. I've noticed Balaur Arms listings disappear and then reappear again after the next wave is made and shipped. It's certainly possible though.
The Balaur Arms Alexandria bears only a passing similarity to the Albion Alexandria, that's for sure. While the Albion is based on the famous one in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Balaur Arms is closer to the one in the Philadelphia Museum of Art.
Philadelphia sword:
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Post by nddave on Jan 23, 2024 14:30:36 GMT
Personally I'm kind of getting tired of all these plagiarism tirades from both members and makers. It's one thing to go after some mass production forge churning out exact copies of copyrighted film or videogame designs or even custom sword designs.
But when these debates or arguments are focused on replicas of historical originals then there is no plagiarism. Even if the designs are similar to what another maker has done its is all in the wheel house of historical swords so I do not agree that someone is "plagiarizing" for example Peter Johnsson or Albion simply because they have a similar sword.
In regards to this kreigmesser, we already know there isn't much to see or study regarding historical originals, and even with those available it's already a quite simple straightforward design. So even if the guy at Balaur Arms used Peter's "design" (Not really his since he's basing his on a or the historical original(s) ) as a reference or example, all he's doing is taking what he has available (the Albion model) to view and help make/design the sword. If anything Peter should feel proud his model is that good that other makers or forges are looking at his modern replicas as he does the historical orginals he's studied. Again something he has had privilege to that many other designers and makers do not.
So again when I a maker come out with a arming sword with a Type X,Xa,XI blade, Style 2 Guard and Type I Pommel, I don't instantly scream plagiarism on the "Arn Sword". I think, "nice they're going for a Norman era or Crusader era arming sword. Just like when I see a Type XVIIIa,XVIIIc blade, Style 7 or 11 guard, and Type T.5,T.4 or J Pommel, I don't instantly think plagiarism on the Alexandria or either of Albion's Type XVIIIc swords.
If Peter wants to get all uptight about all these budget line swords coming out of India and China matching or sharing similarities to designs he's taken from historical examples himself. Then either he needs to realise the historical reproduction market isn't either his or Albions alone, or he needs to be proud and take the credit that his influence in the modern sword market has pushed more focus on historical accuracy and inspired many makers and forges to give stronger focus to historical accuracy themselves.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 23, 2024 15:06:29 GMT
Super, now this is happening here as well. I'ts just like Apple copyrighting a rectangle.
I agree with nddave. It is simple physics. If you want a blade to behave a specific way, it will look similar to something that has been done before. It's gonna end badly if some maker can just copyright a specific type sword (unless it's some specific fantasy/movie type sword). It's a small enough niche as it is. Of course, if the sword is 1:1 the same, we can talk about it, but the Albion and Balaur look pretty different to me.
I doubt Balaur is poaching many customers from Albion either. If you can't afford Albion, you wouldn't buy an Albion if Balaur didn't exist. You just don't have a sword in that case.
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pattyb0009
Member
Getting into antique sabers...
Posts: 1,909
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Post by pattyb0009 on Jan 23, 2024 15:43:06 GMT
I think it's a shame that the kriegsmesser might be pulled from sale. It's a really nice sword at a great price point. There is a general dearth of messers.
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Post by bwaze on Jan 23, 2024 16:52:11 GMT
I think it's a shame that the kriegsmesser might be pulled from sale. It's a really nice sword at a great price point. There is a general dearth of messers. Balaur Arms promised an updated model in 2024. Nobody accused anybody of plagiarism just because they would be doing "Type X,Xa,XI blade, Style 2 Guard and Type I Pommel" - that's a pure strawman, and Peter Johnsson directly addresses this. Not that many people care.
What he objected was taking an Albion sword that doesn't copy an extant museum piece, and copy it in down to millimeter in profile, thicknesses, fuller length and placement... By chance? Oh, it doesn't matter, Peter Johnsson should "feel proud" by having his design just blatantly copied? Theft is the most sincere form of flattery?
I think people do tend to forget what the market was before Peter Johnsson took over designing swords for Albion, and also shared tons and tons of info on original swords and sword design on various forums - information that eventually enabled the whole industry to make a huge step forward in replicating medieval swords - either directly or just by setting a high benchmark with Albion swords that other makers try to replicate.
And I don't think Albion is in any great position, as companies go. Sure, they have many customers prepared to wait patiently up to two years for a 1 to 2 kg piece of steel for $1000 - 4000. Besides skilled workers, that price also covers developing models. Which took many research trips to many museums and personal collections. And sometimes development meant many prototypes until they were satisfied and committed to production. Albion also lost many of the workers and management personnel over the years, and had problems just filling the ranks to maintain the production at roughly the same rate - expanding production would of course shorten the waiting time and bring in more money, but at the same time make company more vulnerable to market swings. People just take them for granted due to their position, but I personally know many people that won't buy Albion sword due to price and waiting time (and unavailability in EU), but are perfectly fine purchasing Balaur Arms (although they also have to import them to EU), or for instance new Windlass / Royal Armouries swords that almost reach cheaper Albions in price, but still offer that unmistakable Windlass quality!
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Post by nddave on Jan 24, 2024 2:35:35 GMT
I think it's a shame that the kriegsmesser might be pulled from sale. It's a really nice sword at a great price point. There is a general dearth of messers. Balaur Arms promised an updated model in 2024. Nobody accused anybody of plagiarism just because they would be doing "Type X,Xa,XI blade, Style 2 Guard and Type I Pommel" - that's a pure strawman, and Peter Johnsson directly addresses this. Not that many people care.
What he objected was taking an Albion sword that doesn't copy an extant museum piece, and copy it in down to millimeter in profile, thicknesses, fuller length and placement... By chance? Oh, it doesn't matter, Peter Johnsson should "feel proud" by having his design just blatantly copied? Theft is the most sincere form of flattery?
I think people do tend to forget what the market was before Peter Johnsson took over designing swords for Albion, and also shared tons and tons of info on original swords and sword design on various forums - information that eventually enabled the whole industry to make a huge step forward in replicating medieval swords - either directly or just by setting a high benchmark with Albion swords that other makers try to replicate.
And I don't think Albion is in any great position, as companies go. Sure, they have many customers prepared to wait patiently up to two years for a 1 to 2 kg piece of steel for $1000 - 4000. Besides skilled workers, that price also covers developing models. Which took many research trips to many museums and personal collections. And sometimes development meant many prototypes until they were satisfied and committed to production. Albion also lost many of the workers and management personnel over the years, and had problems just filling the ranks to maintain the production at roughly the same rate - expanding production would of course shorten the waiting time and bring in more money, but at the same time make company more vulnerable to market swings. People just take them for granted due to their position, but I personally know many people that won't buy Albion sword due to price and waiting time (and unavailability in EU), but are perfectly fine purchasing Balaur Arms (although they also have to import them to EU), or for instance new Windlass / Royal Armouries swords that almost reach cheaper Albions in price, but still offer that unmistakable Windlass quality!
Do you have any evidence of any Balaur or Budget specific sword copied to the millimeter of an Albion Sword? Point yes he should be proud, proud that his research and influence has changed a market that for many years based their idea of a Medieval Sword or something large clunky and unwieldy. Again nobody is saying the budget market should make carbon copies of Albion specific swords, but at the same time since the majority of Albion Swords are direct replicas of historical originals, using Albion stats as a baseline for forging historical replicas isn't wrong based the merit and fact that they are 1:1 replicas. If more manufacturers and forges gave such focus on their European lines the market would hold that much more value. Not everyone in the sword industry has the privilege and capability of viewing and interacting with historical originals like Peter has. The fact he has shared much of his expertise and knowledge with the public shows he wants to enrich the market and the knowledge of European swords not privatize or keep it secret. Think of all the smithing knowledge and techniques that have been lost over the centuries because smiths were keeping or hiding their "trade secrets". In the modern age we don't need swords so the knowledge is cultural or hobbyist at best.
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Post by bwaze on Jan 24, 2024 7:45:23 GMT
"Majority" of Albion swords aren't direct replicas of museum originals - only the "Museum Line" is, and that's only 10 swords, in 20 years, a small portion of their portfolio. When the new line of Royal Armoury / Matt Easton / Windlass swords arrive they will match that in only 2 years!
And I can't see how Peter has some special privilege and capability to view original swords. He's not even a historian, so every time he goes to document swords there are also negotiations about making reproduction - I know that many museums are very serious about them being the rightful custodians of the objects in their collection ("For the people", of course), and jelaously guard their treasures, and the data about them. I remember well what the situation was here in Slovenia even at the time of Albion Ljubljana being made - photography forbidden, all research delegated to appointed people, publishing any data or photo of museum object had a pricelist - with astronomical prices (which would be waivered for the appointed researchers)... And of course they're copyright holders for reproductions. I never found out what kind of deal they made with Albion, although I personally know the custodians responsible for that, it's all trade secret...
And sharing information isn't really something we should take for granted. I remember the time when Czech sword makers would ask you to remove exact measurements of the sword you reviewed because it would be too easy for the others to copy it! And those were just stage combat swords, rebated to 2mm edges, usually without any distal taper, and only vaguely shaped like museum originals. Later I have seen similar requests from other makers about details like COG, COP, distal taper info, even exact weight - "You have bought an object, not the design of it!"
And of course even Peter Johnsson isn't just freely sharing everything. When he had a presentation in Slovenia about his theory on sword design he showed a lot of data I haven't seen anywhere else, not even in his later book" Sword: Form and Thought" (which of course mainly focuses on a limited set of swords, those from Solingen). It's all fine balancing act, using data to demonstrate why your product or theory is better, but on the other hand not giving away freely all the research you paid dearly with time and money, and is a basis of your livelyhood. He indeed said just that when asked for instance for exact data for the dynamic sword diagrams in "Sword: Form and Thought", and on other occasions, for instance when discussing distal taper in detail and cross section change in swords, something he has a large data set, but is almost totally unpublished information. Or for instance sword dynamics calculator - even Peter Johnsson, who helped developing it and publicized it, said that he isn't sure if for instance sharing Albion sword diagrams and stats isn't giving away too much research and development.
"Do you have any evidence of any Balaur or Budget specific sword copied to the millimeter of an Albion Sword?"
Even better, we have an admission from David Weiss, Balaur Arms owner that Albion messer was the basis on which their model was based, so that they are stopping the production and redesigning it.
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Post by nddave on Jan 24, 2024 12:53:51 GMT
"Majority" of Albion swords aren't direct replicas of museum originals - only the "Museum Line" is, and that's only 10 swords, in 20 years, a small portion of their portfolio. When the new line of Royal Armoury / Matt Easton / Windlass swords arrive they will match that in only 2 years! And I can't see how Peter has some special privilege and capability to view original swords. He's not even a historian, so every time he goes to document swords there are also negotiations about making reproduction - I know that many museums are very serious about them being the rightful custodians of the objects in their collection ("For the people", of course), and jelaously guard their treasures, and the data about them. I remember well what the situation was here in Slovenia even at the time of Albion Ljubljana being made - photography forbidden, all research delegated to appointed people, publishing any data or photo of museum object had a pricelist - with astronomical prices (which would be waivered for the appointed researchers)... And of course they're copyright holders for reproductions. I never found out what kind of deal they made with Albion, although I personally know the custodians responsible for that, it's all trade secret... And sharing information isn't really something we should take for granted. I remember the time when Czech sword makers would ask you to remove exact measurements of the sword you reviewed because it would be too easy for the others to copy it! And those were just stage combat swords, rebated to 2mm edges, usually without any distal taper, and only vaguely shaped like museum originals. Later I have seen similar requests from other makers about details like COG, COP, distal taper info, even exact weight - "You have bought an object, not the design of it!" And of course even Peter Johnsson isn't just freely sharing everything. When he had a presentation in Slovenia about his theory on sword design he showed a lot of data I haven't seen anywhere else, not even in his later book" Sword: Form and Thought" (which of course mainly focuses on a limited set of swords, those from Solingen). It's all fine balancing act, using data to demonstrate why your product or theory is better, but on the other hand not giving away freely all the research you paid dearly with time and money, and is a basis of your livelyhood. He indeed said just that when asked for instance for exact data for the dynamic sword diagrams in "Sword: Form and Thought", and on other occasions, for instance when discussing distal taper in detail and cross section change in swords, something he has a large data set, but is almost totally unpublished information. Or for instance sword dynamics calculator - even Peter Johnsson, who helped developing it and publicized it, said that he isn't sure if for instance sharing Albion sword diagrams and stats isn't giving away too much research and development. "Do you have any evidence of any Balaur or Budget specific sword copied to the millimeter of an Albion Sword?" Even better, we have an admission from David Weiss, Balaur Arms owner that Albion messer was the basis on which their model was based, so that they are stopping the production and redesigning it. All Albion Swords are based on the Oakeshott Typology. Blades, Pommels and Guards. All categorized via historical examples. Again this creates the problem of "design copyright" because each type or style is derived from the historical original it's based on. Doesn't matter if it's a specific sword or just a specific part of the sword. It's why we can look at each Albion sword and break it down by the Typology because each sword is based on this Typology which is both freely published and used. Again this goes back to my initial argument that how can one manufacturer or smith "design" a 13th century Warsword with a Type XIIIa blade, Style 2 Guard and Type J Pommel, clearly following the hilt Family C of 13th Century Warswords and claim private design? Especially when there are numerous historical examples with such a configuration? Now we have the problem of a bunch of "fan-peoples" "defending" their favorite manufacturer/vendor's "design" claiming some other M/V has "stolen" their design and causing inconsequential outrage. Creating problems in an already small and niche market, creating backlash and sales to drop. Because now that new M/V has to stop production of a popular sword making them a potentially consequential amount of money in whole. Which in turn raises their production costs and forces them to essentially loose money and market share, potentially taking them out of the market. And why? Because "X manufacturer" through the handling or experience of viewing a higher quality replica, takes notes and pushes more focus on historical accuracy that they might have missed based on their initial design? Pretty ridiculous when you ask me, especially when the majority of this "elitist enthusiast" bunch will equally chastise the lower market manufacturers for not getting something right about a specific sword type... For example Windlass, who for many years made mistakes on their historical replicas (specifically in the blade typologies and blade profiles) but who are now taking effort to have better focus on such things. Now if they do, they'll have to make sure they don't "copy" another manufacturer's "design"... again it's a ridiculous argument and one the hurts the sword industry more than it enriches it. Ironically you don't see such backlash in the Katana market for example, mainly because all the katana elitists arm chair or not are in Nihonto island...
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rschuch
Member
Sharp blades are good to have, if Shire-folk go walking, east, south, far away into dark and danger.
Posts: 811
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Post by rschuch on Jan 24, 2024 15:03:43 GMT
Absolutely agree with all that's been said. I could see if we were talking fantasy designs or movie replicas, but the Alexandria design was made around 1350, so I think the copyright patent is a bit past. These companies just don't like competition, especially lower end under cutting them (no pun intended) and so they lawyer up, but it's just to see if Windlass is up for a legal fight and, hey, judges make some weird decisions so you never know if you'll get lucky. But how much do you have to change it to make it "different"? The crossguard is already different...do they have to make it a flamberge or scimitar blade too?
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Post by blackjackjolly on Jan 24, 2024 15:37:24 GMT
For what it's worth, my understanding is that the functional aspects of a sword (or anything else) are not protected by copyright, and cannot generally be patented unless the design is novel and non-obvious. The _decorative_ aspects of a sword MIGHT be protected by copyright, in the same way a sculpture would, if they are distinct and original, but you'd have a hard time making that case for something based on documented historical designs. If a sword design is used in the trade dress of a business (e.g., the Master Sword used by Nintendo), it can be protected as a trademark, but that protection is limited to specific contexts.
This isn't intended as an argument either way regarding the ETHICS of reproducing somebody else's sword design, but generally speaking, in the US at least, it wouldn't be against the law.
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Post by bwaze on Jan 24, 2024 15:46:57 GMT
OK, maybe I deserved all this by asking if the Balaur Arms Alexandria is discontinued due to any accusations of plagiarism.
But as far as I know, no one accused them of that - Peter Johnsson specifically wrote about that anyone can make reproductions of museum swords, even when they are also copied by Albion.
The only complaint was about kriegsmesser. Surviving examples in museums are much less well documented than regular swords, and I think Albion Knecht specifically doesn't copy a surviving medieval messer, but is Peter Johnsson's design, generally following medieval artwork. And in this specific case there is really a wide variety of surviving blade shapes, curvatures, lengths, fuller shapes and positions etc. To someone arrive at almost exactly the same design by accident would of course be possible - if the said maker turned up dozens or hundreds of iterations. For this to happen with the sample size of, well, ONE, I'd buy a lottery ticket!
As I've written before, "private design" here isn't a simple combination of general blade shape, general crossguard type, general pommel shape... It is a very specific outline of a blade and messer proportions that could be made in a wide variety of ways. Is that blade shape with that specific outline, fuller shape and length, and overall weapon proportion now copyrighted by Peter Johnsson or Albion? No, and I assume if it was Albion could of course sue Balaur Arms, which hasn't happened.
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Post by adtharp on Jan 24, 2024 16:41:37 GMT
Just throwing this out there, a lawsuit between Albion and Kult of Athena (or Balaur Arms) on intellectual property would put them both out of business. This is not going to be tested in court because it would be far to expensive and would not produce any meaningful results (Albion wants KoA to pay for the lost profit of 200 swords (limited edition), which likely have a profit margin in the single digits, you are talking about 1,000's, maybe 10,000's of dollars, for a lawsuit which would cost hundreds of thousands, at least). I am just saying, as a lawyer, this is all academic discussion, because they wouldn't sue, it would be a losing proposition.
And especially for us, because one, if not both companies would be bankrupt by the end of it. Just saying, if you feel copyright infringement has happened, don't buy the products on your ethical grounds, that is fine, but the courts are not going to get involved in this. Now we can continue the discussion, just wanted to point out the true legal situation.
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Post by nddave on Jan 24, 2024 18:31:13 GMT
Just throwing this out there, a lawsuit between Albion and Kult of Athena (or Balaur Arms) on intellectual property would put them both out of business. This is not going to be tested in court because it would be far to expensive and would not produce any meaningful results (Albion wants KoA to pay for the lost profit of 200 swords (limited edition), which likely have a profit margin in the single digits, you are talking about 1,000's, maybe 10,000's of dollars, for a lawsuit which would cost hundreds of thousands, at least). I am just saying, as a lawyer, this is all academic discussion, because they wouldn't sue, it would be a losing proposition. And especially for us, because one, if not both companies would be bankrupt by the end of it. Just saying, if you feel copyright infringement has happened, don't buy the products on your ethical grounds, that is fine, but the courts are not going to get involved in this. Now we can continue the discussion, just wanted to point out the true legal situation. Excellent point, and really who suffers most is us the buyers who are limited in stock availability and choice of swords to buy. Another thing I was wondering since there were no links posted, is there an actual statement or accusation from Peter towards KoA or specifically Balaur Arms requesting take down of specific models or is this just "fan-people on Facebook" causing strife?
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Post by bwaze on Jan 24, 2024 19:04:22 GMT
The debate was mentioned in Alientude Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser review on YouTube linked in first post, there are screengrabs from discussion in YouTube comments at 2:50. I don't know where that debate took place, but I have seen several reposts of those comments.
As far as I understand there was no requests to take down specific models. Alientude later contacted David Weiss of Kult of Athena (that own the Balaur Arms) if he could comment on the acusations that Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser copies the design of Albion Knecht, and he admitted their model is "too close for comfort" to Albion, blamed it on previous owners of Kult of Athena (he's the owner only from November 2020), and promised to stop the production of this model and to redesign their messer.
Peter Johnsson replied to that under Alientude's review:
"Thank you for this thorough reflection of the Knecht and Balaur Kriegsmesser. I would like to use this opportunity to say that I am impressed by the integrity and honesty of David Weiss of Cult of Athena in the way he acts in this individual case and how he engages with the sword community, makers and customers all. We would have a very different market for swords if more actors were of his caliber."
So I think the issue is settled.
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Post by nddave on Jan 25, 2024 0:18:33 GMT
The debate was mentioned in Alientude Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser review on YouTube linked in first post, there are screengrabs from discussion in YouTube comments at 2:50. I don't know where that debate took place, but I have seen several reposts of those comments. As far as I understand there was no requests to take down specific models. Alientude later contacted David Weiss of Kult of Athena (that own the Balaur Arms) if he could comment on the acusations that Balaur Arms Kriegsmesser copies the design of Albion Knecht, and he admitted their model is "too close for comfort" to Albion, blamed it on previous owners of Kult of Athena (he's the owner only from November 2020), and promised to stop the production of this model and to redesign their messer. Peter Johnsson replied to that under Alientude's review: "Thank you for this thorough reflection of the Knecht and Balaur Kriegsmesser. I would like to use this opportunity to say that I am impressed by the integrity and honesty of David Weiss of Cult of Athena in the way he acts in this individual case and how he engages with the sword community, makers and customers all. We would have a very different market for swords if more actors were of his caliber." So I think the issue is settled. Ok, So yea I basically called it, Facebook elitist fan-people bringing attention to a non-issue and making it an issue. Sounds normal, it why I stay off Facebook lol.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,665
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Post by tera on Jan 25, 2024 1:08:36 GMT
I've received a couple of pings about this thread, so I wandered in and read it. Here's what I'm seeing so far:
1) The OP had an honest question about the future of a product line the new KoA owner said was "too close for comfort". 2) Nobody in this thread is accusing anyone of plagiarism or copyright infringement. 3) Some ire is being thrown indirectly at some members for being "elitists" on other platforms. --First, we do have a rule about not bashing other sword enthusiast communities --Second, if there IS drama elsewhere, let it remain elsewhere. Let's all be civil here, otherwise we come across as elitist.
So, in short, the discussion is good but let's please remember to be civil. Let's avoid mudslinging or bringing arguments occurring elsewhere into our home. Same team, here.
This isn't a Mod disciplinary action, just a polite request to keep things factual and friendly.
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Post by alientude on Jan 25, 2024 3:26:42 GMT
I am replying here to correct some misinformation and to clear up exactly the sequence of events that led to the kriegsmesser kerfluffle. Please note that there has been absolutely zero evidence presented about the Alexandria. To speculate that Peter Johnsson or Albion had anything to do with the listing going missing is pure speculation.
There will be at least one link to a Facebook post on my personal profile here - this is not intended to promote my Facebook profile. In fact, I recently switched to have sword content on a Facebook page dedicated to that, but the history is on my personal profile. If you don't like Facebook and refuse to use it, that's your prerogative, but you will be missing out on evidence and therefore will not be fully informed.
On April 25, 2023, I posted some photos of the Albion Knecht next to the Balaur Arms kriegsmesser as a tease for my upcoming review of the Balaur Arms. A few hours later, Mr. Peter Johnsson replied that the Balaur Arms appeared far too close to the Knecht, calling it plagiarism. This led to a great deal of discussion, with some people coming out in favor of Balaur Arms, others with Mr. Johnsson. Mr. James Elmslie commented that the Knecht is wholly Mr. Johnsson's design, as while it is based on multiple historical messers, it is not a replica of any of them.
Mr. Johnsson flat out stated that a lawsuit was completely impractical, and importantly, Albion has never chimed in on this. Mr. Johnsson, as far as I'm aware, never spoke for Albion here. He was voicing his opinions and objections as the designer of the Knecht, and as somebody who has a financial interest in receiving royalties from Albion, which he stated is an important income stream for allowing him to continue researching swords.
I replied to Mr. Johnsson that I would include his objections to the design of the Balaur Arms kriegsmesser in my review. Afterwards, I sent an email to Mr. Weiss, owner of Kult of Athena, informing him of Mr. Johnsson's objections and asking if he wanted to comment so I could present both sides in the review. He talked to his in-house sword designer and decided to reach out directly to Mr. Johnsson. After that discussion, he replied to me with the statement below:
I included Mr. Johnsson's objections in my review, as well as the above statement verbatim.
In my review, I went over both swords in great detail. I decided that in my opinion, the Balaur Arms kriegsmesser is just different enough to not be plagiarism. In my opinion. The thing is, my opinion on this really doesn't matter. Mr. Johnsson's does. Mr. Weiss's does. And they agree. So both the creator of the original design (the Knecht) and the person who is the owner of the Balaur Arms design agree that the latter is plagiarism and should never had been brought to market.
As a side note, Mr. Elmslie was so impressed by Mr. Weiss's strong support of Mr. Johnsson's complaints that he offered to work on a new kriegsmesser design for Kult of Athena, free of charge. I put Mr. Elmslie and Mr. Weiss in contact with each other, and as far as I know that collaboration is still going. Mr. Weiss at the time was hoping to get a new kriegsmesser released in 2024. I don't know if that's still realistic, but I certainly hope it will happen.
I hope this clears up some of the misunderstandings, both about the BA kriegsmesser and the Alexandria.
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Post by bwaze on Jan 25, 2024 4:58:28 GMT
Thank you for clarification, Alientude.
Perhaps I should have worded my original post differently, it is a bit of a minefield subject with strong opinions, apparently.
I also don't visit Kult of Athena website regularly to know if a product deletion just means it's out of stock, it will be unavailable for longer period of time, it's removed for good or is it just website maintenance with no meaning regarding future availability of a product.
I was under the impression Kult of Athena / Balaur Arms Alexandria was quite a popular sword, bringing XVIIIc lrgendary cutting ability of Albion Alexandria and Principe down to third of their price, with scabbard included, and with quite better design and finish that was norm for budget swords. But it isn't as "budget" as Balaur Arms started. But on the other hand with all the inflation this is perhaps just the new $350...
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Post by nddave on Jan 25, 2024 6:19:20 GMT
So yea I was right, I did read through a bulk (but not all) of the Facebook post replies and again (guess I can't directly say it anymore) but those "people" I talked about were the route of it all, was sadly surpised to see how pretentious and arrogant Peter Johnsson was in the thread...wow just wow. I guess he thinks he does "own" historical designs he's copies...
Truth is he's scared, scared of the evolution of the market. Scared of how these budget manufacturers are giving him and "his designs" a run for their money at 2/3rds the price. And rightfully so. Of course he doesn't and couldn't go after legal action he'd be laughed out of court and potentially bring to light his own plagiarism which stems from the works and studies of Ewart Oakeshott and the numerous historical examples he's taken measurements of.
No this was him using his clout in the industry and elitist fanbase to slander KoA into discontinuing their Balaur Messer. And it apparently worked because this new owner would rather eat a loss and kiss-$emprini than potentially face backlash or reputational risk. Pretty sad if you ask me and honestly from reading Peter's attacks and baseless claims of plagiarism, he's definitely scared of how good these budget manufacturers are getting on a minimal budget.
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