nddave
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Post by nddave on Jan 26, 2024 23:53:17 GMT
I didn't ask you to give opinions on the Sovereign, I asked you to take into consideration the similarities between it and the Windlass Type XIV to the historical original each is based on. Apparently there is no similarities due to a double fuller and a more romboid Style 7 guard... I don't understand why you're being so disingenuous in regards to you opinions on Albion vs Windlass as a whole. Seriously you can't answer which brand you personally favor? Or which brand offers a more historically accurate and well made sword. Here I'll help you out, it's Albion! So I guess we can agree on that maybe...? You gave your opinion and when that opinion opposed Peter's you went back on it, at least publicly. I just have questions now about your integrity regarding such matters, you apparently did pick a side and sadly it seems it was one that quickly changes when pressured by those you idolize. Figures, best to keep out of such matters, you know, just incase you get put on the blacklist of Facebook sword groups... either or I guess I'm just talking to a wall because you're dipping out since the thread isn't going in your preferred direction, right? Little annoyed by the condescending behavior but I'll live.✌️
Congratulations, you successfully provoked me into replying one more time because once again, you have completely misrepresented me. Almost makes me think it's intentional...
Here are the extent of my comments on said Facebook thread:
So, no stance taken other than the Balaur Arms is clearly heavily based on the Knecht.
In my review, and in this thread, I stated my opinion that the Balaur Arms is just different enough to not be plagiarism. Clearly in opposition to what Peter Johnsson said. I have not gone back on that stance anywhere in this thread, nor anywhere else. Do I think my opinion matters in this regard? No. I'm just a person on the internet who talks about swords. My opinion on the matter is just as irrelevant as yours. But it is my opinion, and it has not changed.
Since you claim I have changed my opinion on the matter, publicly, after it went against Peter Johnsson's opinion, I demand proof. Show me where I have since stated that I think the kriegsmesser is plagiarism. Since you will not be able to provide such proof, I demand a retraction of your false representation.
So why don't you just come out and say it? It's almost like you agree with all of us there's no Plagiarism, but refuse to oppose Peter Johnsson. Again this is why you're coming off as disingenuous to many in this thread. Again I never said you believe the Messer was plagiarisitc, so I will retract nothing, it is polarizing that you refuse to call Peter on his negative and elitist behavior, using his status and following to force a fellow manufacturer in the market to discontinue a sword they have distributed based on his claims of plagiarism. It's almost like you disagree with Peter's claims but refuse to talk out against Peter himself... See my point now? If anyone is misrepresenting you it's yourself as you sit on the fence.
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Post by glendon on Jan 27, 2024 0:01:54 GMT
Ah, I hate to see guys I like and respect in a pointless kind of rant. I know the subject has its merits, and I have a definite lean to one side of it, but I think the discord is creating a "negative wave" (as Donald Sutherland might say), and the consequences of that discord spreading in the community will far outweigh any benefit of eventual "winning" this argument.
It reminds me of pub arguments that everyone regrets the very next day, if not sooner. Even if you absolutely, positively know you're in the right, just... let's let this one go, me boys.
This from a man who has spent a few nights in a cell, because he just couldn't learn to let it go.
Peace.
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Jan 27, 2024 0:29:24 GMT
Ah, I hate to see guys I like and respect in a pointless kind of rant. I know the subject has its merits, and I have a definite lean to one side of it, but I think the discord is creating a "negative wave" (as Donald Sutherland might say), and the consequences of that discord spreading in the community will far outweigh any benefit of eventual "winning" this argument. It reminds me of pub arguments that everyone regrets the very next day, if not sooner. Even if you absolutely, positively know you're in the right, just... let's let this one go, me boys. This from a man who has spent a few nights in a cell, because he just couldn't learn to let it go. Peace. I agree and am doing my best not to make this personal, but also feel obligated in the sense of debate, to actually debate on this more serious topic, that does effect the industry at a whole, rather than simply agree to disagree to avoid argument. My only fear is to let this go, it's kind of in a sense condoning Peter's behavior which would be an issue in my opinion. Personally I don't feel the BA should have been discontinued nor should the new owner of KoA felt obligated simply because he's new to the industry to do so to please Peter and his supporters. If Ryan was still in charge of KoA I feel there would have been a stronger defense made to KoA and BA as a whole.
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Post by alientude on Jan 27, 2024 4:21:51 GMT
Congratulations, you successfully provoked me into replying one more time because once again, you have completely misrepresented me. Almost makes me think it's intentional...
Here are the extent of my comments on said Facebook thread:
So, no stance taken other than the Balaur Arms is clearly heavily based on the Knecht.
In my review, and in this thread, I stated my opinion that the Balaur Arms is just different enough to not be plagiarism. Clearly in opposition to what Peter Johnsson said. I have not gone back on that stance anywhere in this thread, nor anywhere else. Do I think my opinion matters in this regard? No. I'm just a person on the internet who talks about swords. My opinion on the matter is just as irrelevant as yours. But it is my opinion, and it has not changed.
Since you claim I have changed my opinion on the matter, publicly, after it went against Peter Johnsson's opinion, I demand proof. Show me where I have since stated that I think the kriegsmesser is plagiarism. Since you will not be able to provide such proof, I demand a retraction of your false representation.
So why don't you just come out and say it? It's almost like you agree with all of us there's no Plagiarism, but refuse to oppose Peter Johnsson. Again this is why you're coming off as disingenuous to many in this thread. Again I never said you believe the Messer was plagiarisitc, so I will retract nothing, it is polarizing that you refuse to call Peter on his negative and elitist behavior, using his status and following to force a fellow manufacturer in the market to discontinue a sword they have distributed based on his claims of plagiarism. It's almost like you disagree with Peter's claims but refuse to talk out against Peter himself... See my point now? If anyone is misrepresenting you it's yourself as you sit on the fence.
According to you, I stated my opinion, and when that opinion opposed Peter Johnsson's, I went back on it publicly.
I asked for proof of this claim of yours, since you are directly questioning my integrity. I stated once again that my opinion - the only opinion I have ever publicly stated on this issue - is that the BA kriegsmesser is just different enough from the Knecht to not be plagiarism.
Instead of providing such proof, you instead claim that you never said I believe the messer is plagiarism. So...what exact opinion did I state that I went back on? You have made a serious claim that I am being disingenuous. PROVE IT. Not with vague claims about sitting on the fence, not with trying to force me to condemn somebody who is not even relevant to this specific point. I want you to back up your claim about my public statement(s) with proof.
This is my integrity you are directly attacking. I will not tolerate it. Quote me. Show the proof that I have gone back on my opinion on this topic as you have claimed.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Jan 27, 2024 6:27:00 GMT
I do think the sword community has greatly diminished already and Albion trying to keep swords at limited runs isnt really helpful. Albion has seemed rather stale lately and I personally havent been interested in more than a few of their swords. If demand wanes further for their current offerings, they may indeed bring back the Knecht. (I do think PJ and Albion were copied)
As for the BA Alexandria, I wonder if sales have plummeted too far.
I do hope both alientude and nddave can put this behind them. I really appreciate both of you guys for braving social media and bringing exposure and interest back into the community. However, heated arguments on the forums often lead to sbg experencing member loss and further shrinking our dying family. It feels like Last of the Mohicans when i read these threads.
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Post by bwaze on Jan 27, 2024 6:38:35 GMT
It's interesting, back in the day when Darksword basically copied the Albion Prince (down to an weird, integrated peen block). The sword community at the time flipped its collective [redacted] in favor of Albion and called Darksword out for it. Just noting because it looks like the tide has turned. I have no dog in this fight. 😁 I think many people still feel exactly the same, but think twice before participating in an online "fight" with a certain person who time and again misquotes and misrepresents the opinions of everyone involved. Peter Johnsson never claimed or said 99% of what nddave accuses him of. In Facebook debate there were many more people on the side of Peter Johnsson - the side just pointing out that certain sword blatantly copies elements of a successful sword designed by Peter Johnsson - a sword that is not a copy of museum preserved original. A fact that I'm not even sure what nddave's opinion is on that, because to him is at once clearly not similar, but on the other hand it is completely similar, because it is the same type of sword, and Peter Johnsson cannot claim copyright - but he should somehow feel honoured (although why, if the maker isn't copying him, he's copying the non existing original that only nddave clearly knows of?)! Lots of accusations, and very little sense, this thread has. I think also the times have also turned a bit. A lot of people somehow resent Albion their success and the market position, for various reason. "Sour grapes" comes to mind, although in this day and age a normal phone that will be horribly outdated in two years is more expensive than many Albion swords, and teens now use flip phones with prices close to Museum Line sword, and they won't be able not to break it before the end of the year. You can buy a PC graphics card for the price of a Museum Line sword, and it will also be outdated in a blink of an eye. Just pointing out that something that was seen as a very luxurious item for years and years has now somehow fallen within the range of everyday throwaway goods.
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Jan 27, 2024 17:16:21 GMT
alientude, so obviously as usual things have gotten on the wrong foot. And rather than go through this back and forth waste of time of bolded prove "this and thats", I'm just going to break it down real quick and leave it at that. So you can take it or leave it, I'm not going to please your ego and waste time "proving things" you're just going backtrack on over and over again and loop to nauseum. Point is you know your stance on this debate and that stance is no stance at all because while you state you don't feel the BA plagiarized the Albion, you feel the necessity to pander to the group in defense of Johnsson's claims. Obviously because you hold your "status" on "social media" in the sword community to such a personal regard you're not willing to call it as you feel due to fear of backlash. Which is fine whatever keep your "followers, subscribers, and supporters" happy. But again it's puts a broad view of your integrity in this thread. But whatever you do you, think what you will of me, take your proverbial win or whatever you want. I put my opinion and views on this debate and stuck to them in the debate. I did read your Facebook link and believe me if Peter said what he said about me that he said to you, I'd be flipping him a finger, not pandering to his following or himself, but whatever you're you and I'm me. Have a good one Kyle, hopefully you'll still get a pat on the back at the next Albion booth for your neutrality and following, maybebeven a free sword to review! Hi ghost, long time! Yes I'm in the same boat and we've both been here a along time, and honestly I'm excited to see the market evolve to where the low teir stuff is making strides to offer a better product and be not only more historically accurate but also more sound in fit, finish and handling. If Albion doesn't like it we'll tough. But as we both know they've always had a "king of the hill" status due to how renowned and revered they were in regards to what they brought to the market. And that has always been the best in historical accuracy handling and fit and finish on the production market. So yea I'm sure they're sweating a little and feel their hill diminish as the market evolves. And don't worry about me and alientude, at least on my side none of this is personal and is simply open forum debate. I'll move on from this thread when the debate dies and not worry about it nor hold grudges or attitude towards anyone on opposing sides. What bugs me most is why can't a forum of adults have an open debate heated or not without worrying about "feelings" being hurt? We're all sword buddies or should be, we're all part of the SBG Family as far as I'm concerned and should treat each other as such even when we don't see eye to eye on a subject or topic. Anyway good to to hear from you and thanks for the concern!
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Post by alientude on Jan 27, 2024 17:23:46 GMT
Integrity has indeed been revealed in this thread.
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Post by howler on Jan 27, 2024 18:00:03 GMT
I do have some cheap Clod Steel blades myself... and then I got my first nice sword from Landsknecht Emporium (Falke) and boy it's soo much nicer than the cheap stuff. But I guess we all need to waste some money on cheap stuff before we graduate to nice swords. In hindsight I'd rather have one Albion than ten cheap swords. I have not heard about Clod Steel, but it sounds like real cheap garbage. Now, for instance COLD STEEL, some of their stuff is pretty good (functional) for the price.
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Jan 27, 2024 18:06:31 GMT
It's interesting, back in the day when Darksword basically copied the Albion Prince (down to an weird, integrated peen block). The sword community at the time flipped its collective [redacted] in favor of Albion and called Darksword out for it. Just noting because it looks like the tide has turned. I have no dog in this fight. 😁 I think many people still feel exactly the same, but think twice before participating in an online "fight" with a certain person who time and again misquotes and misrepresents the opinions of everyone involved. Peter Johnsson never claimed or said 99% of what nddave accuses him of. In Facebook debate there were many more people on the side of Peter Johnsson - the side just pointing out that certain sword blatantly copies elements of a successful sword designed by Peter Johnsson - a sword that is not a copy of museum preserved original. A fact that I'm not even sure what nddave's opinion is on that, because to him is at once clearly not similar, but on the other hand it is completely similar, because it is the same type of sword, and Peter Johnsson cannot claim copyright - but he should somehow feel honoured (although why, if the maker isn't copying him, he's copying the non existing original that only nddave clearly knows of?)! Lots of accusations, and very little sense, this thread has. I think also the times have also turned a bit. A lot of people somehow resent Albion their success and the market position, for various reason. "Sour grapes" comes to mind, although in this day and age a normal phone that will be horribly outdated in two years is more expensive than many Albion swords, and teens now use flip phones with prices close to Museum Line sword, and they won't be able not to break it before the end of the year. You can buy a PC graphics card for the price of a Museum Line sword, and it will also be outdated in a blink of an eye. Just pointing out that something that was seen as a very luxurious item for years and years has now somehow fallen within the range of everyday throwaway goods. So I'm misrepresenting what Peter Johnsson said? Did you not read the Facebook linked thread? Again obviously this is hard for you to grasp so I'll break it down one more time and then leave it because either you're feigning ignorance or are just that naive. Again the sword is question is a kriegsmesser, 15-16th century two-handed single edged sword, sabre-like in appearance primarily used in Central European Germanic States. It is neither a modern invention nor is it a fantasy design. They are a specific sword with specific traits separating it by definition from other European Swords of the time period. The fact that Albion, Balaur Arms, Valiant Armory, Cold Steel and a few other manufacturers and smiths denote this title or type on their product or sword again detones it as a historical replica. They didn't make a "two-handed Saber", they reproduced their rendition of a historical Kriegsmesser. Again a specific type of -historical European sword-. Again Peter can claim plagiarism all he wants but if his claims of 1:1 historical accuracy are to be taken literally then it has be taken into account that all of his works including the Kreigmesser is focused on meeting the exact details of historical originals to meet the qualifications to be considered a true historical replica. Which again in turn sets up this conundrum he'd like to dictate regarding plagiarism because anytime any other maker gets too close to being historically accurate, they breach into his territory of design. The issue he's having is that originally the market was very historically inaccurate especially in the lower tier market because these makers didn't have neither the focus or knowledge to make their swords as historically accurate as possible. As such the stigma of you have to go high tier to get a sword with proper historical accuracy has always been a part of the production sword market for over 20 years. A lot of that has to do with the lack of research and awareness of historical accuracy. Something that Peter has been in the fore front of and used to promote and market his designs for Albion. Again their moniker of "History in your Hand " is right there in their marketing. But as the market had evolved and buyers and enthusiasts have become more focused on historical accuracy and historical European Martial Arts the rest of the market too has given more focus on this as well. Again a lot of that has to do with Peter's contributions to the sword enthusiast community to make both buyers and makers aware of the importance of blade geometry, handling and hilt formation, which he himself takes from study of the Oakeshott Typology as well as the various other historically and archeology focused typologies focused on European Swords through the centuries. But now that he's loosing potential market share especially to lower teir manufacturers and forges who can with the right data and research match not only his designs but also the 1:1 accuracy historically he based his designs on, he wants to claim plagiarism for something that wasn't his to begin with. So no, I do not feel there is a majority in the sword community that resents Albion or Peter for their contributions to the sword market, or to their contributions in regards to a stronger focus of historical accuracy of reproduction swords. I feel the majority praise them for it! Which again is why if feel Peter should be proud he's influenced the market in such a way that he has a large contributing factor in. He deserves the credit for placing a major focus on historical accuracy in the European reproduction sword market. But does that mean he gets to claim plagiarism or prominent right simply because such a market shift is now effecting his revenue and market share? No absolutely not and that has been my argument all along.
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Post by howler on Jan 27, 2024 18:08:58 GMT
Dear Peter Johnsson and Albion, thank you for your contributions to the modern replica sword community, now if you would be so gracious and roll over and die without causing too much fuss, that would be nice. We are busy shopping for cheap chinese swords now. Way to take it out of context. But again feed into that elitist mentality like they really care. It's all about the money in the end and Peter's behavior in the Facebook thread proves this. So if the cheap Chinese manufacturers can begin to replicate what the higher end manufacturers offer, is that bad on the chinese manufacturers? Is it bad on the buyer who can't necessarily afford a $1,000 sword and in turn appreciates the efforts of lower priced manufacturers upping their fit, finish and quality control to meet the expectations of the historical sword enthusiast? Yes, there should be a place for both higher and lower priced swords (and knives, guns....anything) in this world, and less lawyers. If the less expensive manufacturers can make a better handling product, win win. There may well be cases of naked rip offs which can hurt innovation, creativity, R & D, etc...and that's where the lawyers come in, but common sense should be an obvious guide.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 27, 2024 18:09:32 GMT
This quote seems apropos to this thread now... “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.” ― Oscar Wilde
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Jan 27, 2024 18:23:30 GMT
Way to take it out of context. But again feed into that elitist mentality like they really care. It's all about the money in the end and Peter's behavior in the Facebook thread proves this. So if the cheap Chinese manufacturers can begin to replicate what the higher end manufacturers offer, is that bad on the chinese manufacturers? Is it bad on the buyer who can't necessarily afford a $1,000 sword and in turn appreciates the efforts of lower priced manufacturers upping their fit, finish and quality control to meet the expectations of the historical sword enthusiast? Yes, there should be a place for both higher and lower priced swords (and knives, guns....anything) in this world, and less lawyers. If the less expensive manufacturers can make a better handling product, win win. There may well be cases of naked rip offs which can hurt innovation, creativity, R & D, etc...and that's where the lawyers come in, but common sense should be an obvious guide. Absolutely, there's a reason there is a tiered market and much of that has to do with allowing accessibility to as many enthusiasts and or buyers as possible. It's why I've always loved SBG and Paul's motto of "best sword for your buck". Yes you're right it's definitely a win, a win for the buyer who gets a better product at a price they can afford and better for the market because it gets that much more inriched and valuable. Of course I'm not a fan of rip offs and carbon copies but yes they're going to happen regardless, so as buyers and enthusiasts we just need to focus on supporting those we deem worthy with our wallets and let those types dry out or die off.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jan 27, 2024 19:30:13 GMT
This quote seems apropos to this thread now... “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.” ― Oscar Wilde To which Billy Shakespeare (in anticipation/prescience) replied: "If there be nothing new, but that which is Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled, Which, laboring for invention, bear amiss The second burden of a former child... O, sure I am the wits of former days To subjects worse have given admiring praise." But then one might well argue that Billy, unlike Wilde, didn't as much posture about his own supposed greatness.
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Greg E
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little bit of this... and a whole lot of that
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Post by Greg E on Jan 27, 2024 21:54:16 GMT
Who here wouldn't trade a Hanwei, Windless or Balar for the like/similar model of Albion for free if they could.... ? I have over and over bought low to mid level swords only to be disappointed or brought to the level of 'eh' by the quality of fit and finish and tilted parts. I wish I could be happy with them. Many times I have sworn off the mid to lower $ swords to be enticed again by a new model, and almost always wish I hadn't given it another shot. I will say that they seem to be getting slightly better. The Windlass Langeid sword I bought lately after watching a few reviews, showed up and left me in the 'eh' place. The blade on the box and in online pictures had a nice satin finish to it. What came was typical high polish blade with wishy washy fuller crispness, my usual experience with Windlass. Though for once.... the tip of the blade was somewhat spatula shaped in nature, which is a plus. The only mid level sword I have been mostly pleased with is the first Balaur Arms Single Edged Viking sword. Pretty decent. Then I got an Albion Berserkr. The Balaur Arms was sent on it's way as the Berserkr was just much better. Now the only non Albions I own are those of models not made by them. Delt Tin, Windlass have some not represented by Albion such as Migration, Vendel the Langeid sword etc.
Do I think Albion can do no wrong? Absolutely not. Production times way too long and Viking/Migration sword models largely forgotten. Not one Viking Age Museum Line sword. Have I had to clean up an edge or two? Yes. Have they had as a whole less problems than the other makers I have owned? Absolutely. When I have had a sword or axe being made by them they have been gracious and prompt with replying to questions or concerns unlike custom smiths I have engaged with.
I do not see anyone rising to Albion levels without being a premium product themselves.. Valiant Armory, Atrims etc. Do I think Albion has their eye on those makers as competition? Sure. Do I think they are worried about the makers outside the US with lower end products? Not yet, and not in the near future based on what I have handled compared to what I own. Besides an almost 2 year waiting list shows that they have people lined up still. I wish I could be happy with the mid to low end stuff, as I would have a basement full of them like some others, not under a score like I have now. Those that have 100 or more lower level swords could have a good number of Albions for the overall money they spent, but seem happy. Would they be as happy with 12 Albions instead? Who knows, some value quantity and diversity over the Albion aesthetic, which is great. And I don't have to compete with them when someone drops an Albion Valkyrja on the sell forum.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jan 28, 2024 2:17:58 GMT
This was a one page thread last I checked it... it will take me a while to catch up.
In the meantime, can we all be respectful and chill? Leave the ugliness of whatever is going on in the Facebook group in Facebook.
As long as debate is civil, it's all good.
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Post by blackprince on Jan 28, 2024 3:35:40 GMT
The irony of this discussion is that Balaur Arms appears to be the victim of “plagiarism;” most of their original designs are now sold under different brands. Don’t get me wrong; I like all of the businesses involved and the Balaur Arms designs. So I am glad these are still available in some form. However, I’m super interested to hear the inside story about the Balaur Arms brand.
I doubt any swords from the Balaur line were dropped due to perceived “plagiarism.” KOA seems to have a good business relationship with Albion, accepting Albion orders and shipping their product. Albion is awesome at making swords. KOA is awesome at shipping swords. It seems to be a mutually beneficial arrangement that plays to both of their strengths.
I recall early descriptions of the Balaur Arms brand as an attempt to incorporate high end features at an entry level price. An entry level sword isn’t going to meet the quality of a high end sword, and Albion knows it. People will continue to buy Albion no matter how much the rest of the market catches up as long as Albion maintains their quality. Regardless, the Balaur Arms brand seems to have made a positive impact on the entry level sword market. It seemed to prove to established forges that getting an expert to design swords is value added. It also seems to have exposed several forges to “good design” as Balaur Arms shifted production sites over the years. It’s exciting to see that Balaur Arms is now a mid-tier brand, and I hope they can increase the market expectations of mid-tier brands like they did for the entry level.
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Post by blackjackjolly on Feb 15, 2024 19:55:09 GMT
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pattyb0009
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Getting into antique sabers...
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Post by pattyb0009 on Feb 15, 2024 22:11:03 GMT
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Post by bwaze on Feb 16, 2024 5:25:47 GMT
Yeah, and I see it still has the old text:
"Pre-orders for early October are closed."
Which doesn't have much sense, since the sword was in stock often after that time. I guess there really wasn't any reason for item removal, other than unavailability.
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