|
Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 10:05:33 GMT
I meant no offense, my memory isn't that good that I remember that price. Also gotta be honest, it's a pretty small thing to make such a fuss about and make the deduction that I am "not a nice person". And seeing agression where there is none is your problem not mine.
Memory not good? Why not? You were so sure before? What medical condition do you have?
You are not my problem, you are the problem of those who might have to live with you, (unless you live alone). But you impinge on my reputation here...and now I don't know what to think about you.
Man, please calm down. Your reputation? Really? Over this? I am so finished with this kindergarden stuff....
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 10:32:50 GMT
Memory not good? Why not? You were so sure before? What medical condition do you have?
You are not my problem, you are the problem of those who might have to live with you, (unless you live alone). But you impinge on my reputation here...and now I don't know what to think about you.
Man, please calm down. Your reputation? Really? Over this? I am so finished with this kindergarden stuff....
You did not read the full thread before commenting. You Insinuate that that I am stupid. You insult and contradict people, either intentionally, or Unintentionally. And then we have the price issue and I can't be sure why you say what you say...I just know I can't give you Benefit of the doubt.
I am calm very calm, because that's where clarity is found. This is global forum, and yes I will defend my reputation.
|
|
|
Post by zsg1313 on Jan 4, 2024 13:30:42 GMT
Back on topic I'd be hesitant to trust ANY blade steel label from just about any lonquan forge with the exception of the older established brands like DF, Hanwei, Bugei etc. Motohara would be on that list also but are newer. Anything advertised as W2 I would say is BS unless they are importing it from Aldo. Anything labeled L6 with a wild choji hamon? Yea, not happening, thats not L6.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 13:40:00 GMT
Back on topic I'd be hesitant to trust ANY blade steel label from just about any lonquan forge with the exception of the older established brands like DF, Hanwei, Bugei etc. Motohara would be on that list also but are newer. Anything advertised as W2 I would say is BS unless they are importing it from Aldo. Anything labeled L6 with a wild choji hamon? Yea, not happening, thats not L6. Andi is probably right, L6 is chinese for 1045 on the low end sellers. Does L6 not take a Hamon? What does determine if a steel takes a good Hamon?
I bet it does not matter anyways, L6 without bainite is just like any other carbon steel.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 4, 2024 13:49:25 GMT
L6 without bainite tempering is a better steel than just 1070 with same carbon content due to the nickel in it. It makes the steel tougher. You can make the bainite heat treatment with all other steels too, but it seems to work best with the already tougher L6.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 13:55:31 GMT
L6 without bainite tempering is a better steel than just 1070 with same carbon content due to the nickel in it. It makes the steel tougher. You can make the bainite heat treatment with all other steels too, but it seems to work best with the already tougher L6. Yeah, the area in the phase diagram is bigger than with others, so easier to hit. Just mean't its nothing that special compared to other 0,65-0,75%C steels, not even that expensive, has been used for saw blades a lot. The Bainite just gave it that allure of something special, and most people don't go looking deeper unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 4, 2024 14:05:53 GMT
I assume without Howard Clark's Bainite blades no L6 swords would be offered. It's just a marketing trick, they could have given their 1045 any other name.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 14:23:47 GMT
Just like they marketed everything as 1095 just a few years ago. I really would like to know the profit margin for this stuff.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 4, 2024 14:33:46 GMT
I assume it's less the price difference between the steel types but less quenching failures.
|
|
|
Post by zsg1313 on Jan 4, 2024 14:50:20 GMT
Back on topic I'd be hesitant to trust ANY blade steel label from just about any lonquan forge with the exception of the older established brands like DF, Hanwei, Bugei etc. Motohara would be on that list also but are newer. Anything advertised as W2 I would say is BS unless they are importing it from Aldo. Anything labeled L6 with a wild choji hamon? Yea, not happening, thats not L6. Andi is probably right, L6 is chinese for 1045 on the low end sellers. Does L6 not take a Hamon? What does determine if a steel takes a good Hamon?
I bet it does not matter anyways, L6 without bainite is just like any other carbon steel.
L6 can produce a hamon but not a "flashy" one. Howard had discussed this on SFI a bit and there are more current discussions on bladesmithforums and bladeforums.
|
|
|
Post by Tiers1 on Jan 5, 2024 5:11:51 GMT
I don't know why, but for reasons I can't fully explain I have always had it in my head that the profit margins are around 600% - 700%...so the average $300 LQ katana came out of the shop for a cost of around $50.
These days LQ katana routinely sell on Amazon for $140. They are still making money on that after shipping em to the U.S. and Amazon taking their cut. I have bought reasonably decent swords direct from China for like $100 on eBay, shipped to the U.S...which means they still made something, or broke even, with a takeaway of $35.
Now, imagine if you paid $10 in LQ to professionally heat treat your usual 1060, obtained objectively better performance which is certainly good, and an excellent selling point, and no one would ever test your steel type...
Honestly I've wondered just how tough 1045 would be if you maxed it out. Carbon that low means a very tough blades, and you could probably get it to 55 or even 56hrc which most would find perfectly acceptable in use. And I think with like .45 carbon it would still be very hard to break and very hard to chip.
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 5, 2024 6:03:41 GMT
I assume that's true and I'd not hesitate to buy a 1045 sword from a trustworthy smith. My fear with the LQ swords in their lowest quality/price range is, that they also make shortcuts in the heat treatment.
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Jan 5, 2024 11:53:54 GMT
I don't know why, but for reasons I can't fully explain I have always had it in my head that the profit margins are around 600% - 700%...so the average $300 LQ katana came out of the shop for a cost of around $50. These days LQ katana routinely sell on Amazon for $140. They are still making money on that after shipping em to the U.S. and Amazon taking their cut. I have bought reasonably decent swords direct from China for like $100 on eBay, shipped to the U.S...which means they still made something, or broke even, with a takeaway of $35. Now, imagine if you paid $10 in LQ to professionally heat treat your usual 1060, obtained objectively better performance which is certainly good, and an excellent selling point, and no one would ever test your steel type... Honestly I've wondered just how tough 1045 would be if you maxed it out. Carbon that low means a very tough blades, and you could probably get it to 55 or even 56hrc which most would find perfectly acceptable in use. And I think with like .45 carbon it would still be very hard to break and very hard to chip. Some modern Hammers are made from 1045, so if done well, it will be pretty good.
|
|
|
Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 5, 2024 14:40:07 GMT
The cost difference between the steel blanks is of no concern to the finished price of the product. What matters, as mentioned before, is how accepting that steel is with mistakes and how it can manage a wide range of working temperatures. We all know that the Chinese forges probably don't even use thermometers, so a steel that is forgiving is the order of the day.
As with every manufactured product, the cost is in the labor, not the materials. It takes skill and time to finish a sword from a steel blank. Your $200 katana can't possibly be expected to have as flawless a finish as a $2,000 sword, given the same materials. However, that $200 sword is most likely just a durable and just as functional as the more expensive blade. Yes, I know there's a lot that goes into the balance and so forth, but again this is where the price difference will be seen.
We've had these discussion ad nauseum on this forum about the alloy of steel not being important as compared to the quality of the heat treatment, and again about the fit and finish of the final product. I'll say it again, you should not have any expectations whatsoever that a $200 sword will be lovingly hand crafted by a 100 year old 15th generation Japanese sword master. You want a sword like that, then be prepared to cough up a minimum of $20 grand and wait 5-10 years. You want a $200 sword, then you should expect it to be safe and functional- that's about it- anything more than that is a bonus.
And as a reminder, no matter what is advertised, you have ZERO way to verify the steel alloy at home. You need a laboratory with specialized spectrography equipment for that. You can check the hardness easily enough, and that will at least give you one data point, but for the rest you are just going to have to go on faith that the steel is 1045, 1095, 9160, ZX44b unobtanium, or whatever.
|
|
|
Post by Tiers1 on Jan 5, 2024 15:45:41 GMT
I've seen really good results from simple differential hardening and the right edge geometry with something like 1060 or 5160 (not higher carbon steels though). There is enough toughness to resist chipping even when the edges are at their 60ish hrc quenched hardness. The back is of course soft and prone to bending but that is way better then what will happen with a botched through temper.
I recently donated a one-piece Dao sword from Longquan made from the usual Chinese pattern welded stuff to Matt Jensen for review/destruction. I put a well apexed 22 degree per side blended edge bevel on it, redone from its previous 16 degree per side flat grind which had zero niku. The sword had no issues going through pool noodles and tatami and withstood a withering amount of abuse overall in freezing temperatures.
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Jan 7, 2024 8:23:17 GMT
I've seen really good results from simple differential hardening and the right edge geometry with something like 1060 or 5160 (not higher carbon steels though). There is enough toughness to resist chipping even when the edges are at their 60ish hrc quenched hardness. The back is of course soft and prone to bending but that is way better then what will happen with a botched through temper. I recently donated a one-piece Dao sword from Longquan made from the usual Chinese pattern welded stuff to Matt Jensen for review/destruction. I put a well apexed 22 degree per side blended edge bevel on it, redone from its previous 16 degree per side flat grind which had zero niku. The sword had no issues going through pool noodles and tatami and withstood a withering amount of abuse overall in freezing temperatures. In your experience, what would you say is the upper limit for Carbon in sword steel, 1084 (?), or is it simply .6% or roundabout?
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on Jan 7, 2024 8:35:22 GMT
I meant no offense, my memory isn't that good that I remember that price. Also gotta be honest, it's a pretty small thing to make such a fuss about and make the deduction that I am "not a nice person". And seeing agression where there is none is your problem not mine.
Memory not good? Why not? You were so sure before? What medical condition do you have?
You are not my problem, you are the problem of those who might have to live with you, (unless you live alone). But you impinge on my reputation here...and now I don't know what to think about you.
LMAO... all over a cheap ass set of chinese swords...
|
|
|
Post by metinemre on Jan 7, 2024 20:56:22 GMT
Memory not good? Why not? You were so sure before? What medical condition do you have?
You are not my problem, you are the problem of those who might have to live with you, (unless you live alone). But you impinge on my reputation here...and now I don't know what to think about you.
LMAO... all over a cheap ass set of chinese swords... Yeah, this is really funny how it escalated for no reason and the choice of words lol. Btw it is known and noticed by other members that their prices are shown/seen different depending on the location of the viewer. Their prices also went up in general.
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Jan 8, 2024 0:27:22 GMT
Memory not good? Why not? You were so sure before? What medical condition do you have?
You are not my problem, you are the problem of those who might have to live with you, (unless you live alone). But you impinge on my reputation here...and now I don't know what to think about you.
LMAO... all over a cheap ass set of chinese swords... Not so cheap now, at least in price.
|
|
|
Post by izzy on Jan 8, 2024 8:25:46 GMT
LMAO... all over a cheap ass set of chinese swords... Yeah, this is really funny how it escalated for no reason and the choice of words lol. Btw it is known and noticed by other members that their prices are shown/seen different depending on the location of the viewer. Their prices also went up in general.
Thank you for Providing me a link via PM on that...that is likely indeed the case, varying prices for different regions.
Now it's time to say: I'm sorry to the forum, and anyone who reads this, for possibly over reacting, and unknowingly arguing over a price that, like I postulated, was likely different to Mr. Stabby. You can all now LOL, snort your coffee, or what ever you do for giggles.
|
|