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Post by larason2 on Jan 1, 2024 0:41:40 GMT
Half tempered might be ok for a low carbon steel like 1065. Even fully hardened they aren't that hard. The half quench may slow the cooling down enough to get it at a reasonable grain structure (if they're lucky!). Not what should be done, maybe responsible for some of the breaks we've seen, but if it just hangs on the wall it might be ok as many have said. I'm sure there's also cases of not quite heating it up enough before quenching too, so it doesn't quite harden. If you're not cutting with it, you'd never know.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 1, 2024 1:09:24 GMT
I was looking at a Tactical Katana / Wakizashi set from Dragon Sword/ Zesy/ Swordcn, and I can't find info on ZS-1 Steel.
( I am aware of a site that has in stock in the USA, so I would be ordering from swordis.com)
I could guess it's S-1, but I don't want to presume anything other than this may be a proprietary name, and info is limited.
I do intend to contact the seller and ask about Niku on the blade ( secondary bevel), but any info on quality of the steel, general thoughts on Heat treat vs. an RVA-Katana "Midnight Vortex 9260" ( "Moritaka / Shienken of swords"" that has has no serious Niku), or any any thoughts in general would be appreciated.
Please excuse any Misspellings.
Communist Chinese marketing...to avoid stating the obvious. If its not listed here...I doubt it exists... knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/knife-steels-rated-by-a-metallurgist-toughness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/
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Post by Tiers1 on Jan 1, 2024 2:56:39 GMT
Whatever they get back to you with, I wouldn't put much faith in it without video proof. If they send you a video with a time/date stamp that shows their equipment in use that would go a long ways, but among all of the factory vids I have seen in China, India,Pakistan, and similar sword making destinations, I have never seen modern heat treating equipment anywhere. Nor have I seen anything that looks like a heat treating protocol. Ever seen Matt Easton's video on the Windlass facilities? The heat treating area was the one area they wouldn't let him go to because it was 'proprietary'...hmmm...it was so proprietary that anyone who sees any part of the process could steal such a valuable trade secret when Windlass isn't known for their materials performance in the first place? Smells pretty fishy.
Again, heat treating properly is expensive, relative, say, to what a basic mass made blade would cost, and under certain circumstances could introduce a higher likelihood of failure. Manufacturers know that the most basic level of durability is sufficient for nearly every destiny a modern sword will meet so they aren't about to quadruple their electric bill.
I don't know how they handle this in the Philippines but all of the video records of the processes there I have seen show an interrupted edge quench in oil or water without clay. This gives a pretty hard edge with a very soft spine.
Last thing I'd mention is that Peters' Heat Treat will give a sword a very serious professional grade heat treatment with multiple normalization cycles, vacuum furnaces, and deep cryo for like $60 plus shipping. If they charge $60 I would imagine one could obtain a quality heat treat in Longquan for maybe $15 or $20. This would give a really significant toughness advantage to even a very basic low alloy steel.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 7:36:08 GMT
No offense meant, but why do you expect a definitive or even true answer of someone who offers a kat/wak daisho for 260 bucks made of high performance alloy steel? No offense taken. It's actually a little deceptive in terms of price, as they are baiting the hook If you go to the drop down box it's more like 439 for all three, still cheap, but not too cheap if they actually wanted to put some quality HT into it. Of course, that is a big "IF" and the odds of that are slim.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 7:59:39 GMT
Whatever they get back to you with, I wouldn't put much faith in it without video proof. If they send you a video with a time/date stamp that shows their equipment in use that would go a long ways, but among all of the factory vids I have seen in China, India,Pakistan, and similar sword making destinations, I have never seen modern heat treating equipment anywhere. Nor have I seen anything that looks like a heat treating protocol. Ever seen Matt Easton's video on the Windlass facilities? The heat treating area was the one area they wouldn't let him go to because it was 'proprietary'...hmmm...it was so proprietary that anyone who sees any part of the process could steal such a valuable trade secret when Windlass isn't known for their materials performance in the first place? Smells pretty fishy. Again, heat treating properly is expensive, relative, say, to what a basic mass made blade would cost, and under certain circumstances could introduce a higher likelihood of failure. Manufacturers know that the most basic level of durability is sufficient for nearly every destiny a modern sword will meet so they aren't about to quadruple their electric bill. I don't know how they handle this in the Philippines but all of the video records of the processes there I have seen show an interrupted edge quench in oil or water without clay. This gives a pretty hard edge with a very soft spine. Last thing I'd mention is that Peters' Heat Treat will give a sword a very serious professional grade heat treatment with multiple normalization cycles, vacuum furnaces, and deep cryo for like $60 plus shipping. If they charge $60 I would imagine one could obtain a quality heat treat in Longquan for maybe $15 or $20. This would give a really significant toughness advantage to even a very basic low alloy steel.
Yes. I have run up against that "proprietary" wall before in terms of information in the recent past. It's really a shame, there are some brands of Chinese kitchen Cutlery that are really good ( it's obvious the HT was done in modern ovens with good production of 4C13). But based on the videos I have seen from SBG, and your posts I think I will skip further purchases of mass produced swords from Longquan, even if the seller is honest about the steel you have the Heat treat issue to deal with.
As for the Philippines, I saw a few vids quite a while ago from the De Guzman forge and that is used by many "brands", and they show edge quenching in water ( or some kind of 3/4 quench for the double edge that I prefer, as they should quench both sides). AFAIK they do make some pieces with a full HT, but that may not always be the best fit for every use, or for every sword.
Thank you for the tip on Peter's.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 1, 2024 8:38:55 GMT
The problem with noname chinese products is, you never know what you get and if you have problems you might get the runaround.
Although some, like LK Chen, do produce at high quality for relatively low prices (their heat treat is pretty consistant as well). Unless you know that the manufacturer is good, I would be wary for a using sword. Heat treat doesn't matter for 90% of sales since they won't ever see use.
Windlass' factories look like they are from the 19th century, and yeah they do have lemons sometimes, but I think the difference is quality control. You can have the worst setup, but if your QC is good, nobody will care.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 8:44:00 GMT
I was looking at a Tactical Katana / Wakizashi set from Dragon Sword/ Zesy/ Swordcn, and I can't find info on ZS-1 Steel.
( I am aware of a site that has in stock in the USA, so I would be ordering from swordis.com)
I could guess it's S-1, but I don't want to presume anything other than this may be a proprietary name, and info is limited.
I do intend to contact the seller and ask about Niku on the blade ( secondary bevel), but any info on quality of the steel, general thoughts on Heat treat vs. an RVA-Katana "Midnight Vortex 9260" ( "Moritaka / Shienken of swords"" that has has no serious Niku), or any any thoughts in general would be appreciated.
Please excuse any Misspellings.
Communist Chinese marketing...to avoid stating the obvious. If its not listed here...I doubt it exists... knifesteelnerds.com/2021/10/19/knife-steels-rated-by-a-metallurgist-toughness-edge-retention-and-corrosion-resistance/
Yes I am a fan of Knifesteelnerds. It's actually not a complete list of steels, but I really appreciate the work he put into his site, and making much of the information public.
I was 90% sure they ( dragon Sword. Zesy) just renamed a certain steel. Considering how many people here buy off ebay, or straight form China, I was looking for answers on a particular steel that will likely never come. A few years ago when I bought a TH 9260 Katana and Wakizashi from Cheness, I thought I was being "smart", simply because there were mostly favorable reviews of the blades themselves ( Mostly from SBG and the forums), now I am not so sure, Kris Cutlery was out of business by then, so I settled for what I thought was OK.
I'm not a complete sucker for the low priced items, but sometimes I can be tempted ... in the past I have commissioned some custom blades from a US maker ( Mark Marrow) in 5160, at least in the more affordable Gladius configurations.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 8:55:10 GMT
The problem with noname chinese products is, you never know what you get and if you have problems you might get the runaround. Although some, like LK Chen, do produce at high quality for relatively low prices (their heat treat is pretty consistant as well). Unless you know that the manufacturer is good, I would be wary for a using sword. Heat treat doesn't matter for 90% of sales since they won't ever see use. Windlass' factories look like they are from the 19th century, and yeah they do have lemons sometimes, but I think the difference is quality control. You can have the worst setup, but if your QC is good, nobody will care. Yes I have been looking at LK Chen, they stand out from the pack. I am also looking at some Rudolf Krutzsky items.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 9:18:50 GMT
Well the Rep from swordcn.com in China got back to me, and say that what they call "ZS-1" is 5160.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 1, 2024 11:21:40 GMT
Well the Rep from swordcn.com in China got back to me, and say that what they call "ZS-1" is 5160. 5160 is a really good spring steel and should make an excellent sword. But it would be best as through hardened, not DH. I have a 5160 sword and it's tough as can be. The downside is that it is not very interesting to look at because it has no hamon, and it can be a bit of work to sharpen. The trade-off is the blade will last through a zombie apocalypse with no problem at all. I would like to think that a manufacturer would be smart enough to take a billet of factory produced 5160 and cut it to a sword shape on a cnc machine, polish it up, put on the fittings and call it done without any additional heat treatment. That would make a super tough and consistent sword, fully usable and nearly unbreakable. Generally speaking, 99% of sword failure happens in the heat treatment process. If they start with a good billet, then heat treatment won't be required.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 1, 2024 11:36:48 GMT
5160 ia another Longquan name for 1045.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 12:18:02 GMT
Well the Rep from swordcn.com in China got back to me, and say that what they call "ZS-1" is 5160. 5160 is a really good spring steel and should make an excellent sword. But it would be best as through hardened, not DH. I have a 5160 sword and it's tough as can be. The downside is that it is not very interesting to look at because it has no hamon, and it can be a bit of work to sharpen. The trade-off is the blade will last through a zombie apocalypse with no problem at all. I would like to think that a manufacturer would be smart enough to take a billet of factory produced 5160 and cut it to a sword shape on a cnc machine, polish it up, put on the fittings and call it done without any additional heat treatment. That would make a super tough and consistent sword, fully usable and nearly unbreakable. Generally speaking, 99% of sword failure happens in the heat treatment process. If they start with a good billet, then heat treatment won't be required. Are you talking about a billet supplied cold rolled? Something that is not supplied Annealed?
The product in the link is supposed to be a "through hardened" blade. Personally, I would want at least some HT for the sake of the the edge ( either a TH or DH not a big difference to me in 5160). Most of my current 5160 blades are water quenched, mostly on the edges...makes a usable sword, not a super sword, but something that is good enough.
If you find the posts by Tiers 1 on this thread he gives a good overview of the process most makers from that region use...one that has quite a few shortcuts, BUT cuts down on cost.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 1, 2024 14:58:39 GMT
Yes I am a fan of Knifesteelnerds. It's actually not a complete list of steels, but I really appreciate the work he put into his site, and making much of the information public.
I was 90% sure they ( dragon Sword. Zesy) just renamed a certain steel. Considering how many people here buy off ebay, or straight form China, I was looking for answers on a particular steel that will likely never come. A few years ago when I bought a TH 9260 Katana and Wakizashi from Cheness, I thought I was being "smart", simply because there were mostly favorable reviews of the blades themselves ( Mostly from SBG and the forums), now I am not so sure, Kris Cutlery was out of business by then, so I settled for what I thought was OK.
I'm not a complete sucker for the low priced items, but sometimes I can be tempted ... in the past I have commissioned some custom blades from a US maker ( Mark Marrow) in 5160, at least in the more affordable Gladius configurations. The problem when buying ANYTHING from communist china, particularly at the lower end of the market, you never know what you are really getting in terms of the type/quality of steel much less heat treat. A big part of the reason for this is that all of these companies exist in a country where there is no legal recourse for dissatisfied or defrauded customers. I would bet that metallurgical testing of many of the low end product from china would be enlightening in not a good way. While I have always shied away from low priced items, I can understand the allure. For me growing up in a home that had economic challenges, I was taught it was far better to save my hard earned dollars , buy not the first thing I could afford but wait and save to buy something of high quality, take good care of it and usually enjoy a much longer service life. You have excellent taste in Roman weaponry!!!! I did some research a number of years ago and chose Mark to make a custom sword for me...What I like to call my Pompeii semi spatha...
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 1, 2024 15:18:53 GMT
Billet cold rolled, cut on CNC, polished and de-stressed. That would be a great sword. Simple, few things to go strong, and durable enough for anything you can throw at it. Its already spring steel, so what else will it need? The biggest problem with all of these swords from China is the horribly inconsistent quality of the heat treatment. If they start with a good billet, then they only have to de-stress the steel after it's made to look like a sword. No quenching, hardening, de-corbonizing, or anything fancy required. Its a simple process that doesn't require much equipment. www.bodycote.com/services/heat-treatment/stress-relieving/
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Post by Tiers1 on Jan 1, 2024 16:29:11 GMT
I have no earthly idea why they would rename 5160 as 'zs-1' other than the obvious (marketing). As I think about it...yea man they decided to rename one of the most common steels, which has a good reputation...as some special material that is proprietary to themselves. That's a bold move. It makes me think they might make some other bold moves.
I do tend to trust LK Chen, I don't know that they have some high quality modern heat treatment, but I do think at minimum they try harder and they generally succeed.
Here is another tale. I had a Longquan made sword that was claimed to be 65mn. I sent it to Peters to be annealed and re-heattreated according to ht parameters consistent with 65mn. It shattered on the first cut. It was very likely not even close to 65mn. 65mn is not an expensive steel and I have no doubt they use it there, but as many have said, they are probably using what they have that day that is 'good enough'
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 18:32:14 GMT
Billet cold rolled, cut on CNC, polished and de-stressed. That would be a great sword. Simple, few things to go strong, and durable enough for anything you can throw at it. Its already spring steel, so what else will it need? The biggest problem with all of these swords from China is the horribly inconsistent quality of the heat treatment. If they start with a good billet, then they only have to de-stress the steel after it's made to look like a sword. No quenching, hardening, de-corbonizing, or anything fancy required. Its a simple process that doesn't require much equipment. www.bodycote.com/services/heat-treatment/stress-relieving/
What would be the approximate Rockwell of 5160 as supplied from the steel mill per those specs? Can it vary between makers?
Hmm stress relief at 550 to 650 C for 2 hours sounds like a lot of time for these mass production forges ( many will not have those kinds of controlled ovens in any case). I personally think your idea has merit, but I'm not sure most Longquan forges are set up for that.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 1, 2024 18:53:40 GMT
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 19:01:29 GMT
Yes I am a fan of Knifesteelnerds. It's actually not a complete list of steels, but I really appreciate the work he put into his site, and making much of the information public.
I was 90% sure they ( dragon Sword. Zesy) just renamed a certain steel. Considering how many people here buy off ebay, or straight form China, I was looking for answers on a particular steel that will likely never come. A few years ago when I bought a TH 9260 Katana and Wakizashi from Cheness, I thought I was being "smart", simply because there were mostly favorable reviews of the blades themselves ( Mostly from SBG and the forums), now I am not so sure, Kris Cutlery was out of business by then, so I settled for what I thought was OK.
I'm not a complete sucker for the low priced items, but sometimes I can be tempted ... in the past I have commissioned some custom blades from a US maker ( Mark Marrow) in 5160, at least in the more affordable Gladius configurations. The problem when buying ANYTHING from communist china, particularly at the lower end of the market, you never know what you are really getting in terms of the type/quality of steel much less heat treat. A big part of the reason for this is that all of these companies exist in a country where there is no legal recourse for dissatisfied or defrauded customers. I would bet that metallurgical testing of many of the low end product from china would be enlightening in not a good way. While I have always shied away from low priced items, I can understand the allure. For me growing up in a home that had economic challenges, I was taught it was far better to save my hard earned dollars , buy not the first thing I could afford but wait and save to buy something of high quality, take good care of it and usually enjoy a much longer service life. You have excellent taste in Roman weaponry!!!! I did some research a number of years ago and chose Mark to make a custom sword for me...What I like to call my Pompeii semi spatha... Nice, really nice...I have yet to mount mine, got 2 bare blades, it's only been since 2009...Maybe this will be the year to mount them.(?)
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 19:12:31 GMT
Functional yes, but IDK about the market for a 35 HRC sword, even though it would be about the hardness of Wootz....some people trash talk 5160 swords in the lower 50 HRC. One has to consider the market.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 1, 2024 19:22:21 GMT
I think it would be a nightmare* to try and perserve the original heat treat while grinding away a lot of material. But yeah, 35 is pretty low nowdays, also the cold rolling induces stress in the material, so that's also not good for long blades. *EDIT: I mean from a time perspective, you can't just run full force at it to rough out the shape.
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