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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 19:52:45 GMT
I think it would be a nightmare to try and perserve the original heat treat while grinding away a lot of material. But yeah, 35 is pretty low nowdays, also the cold rolling induces stress in the material, so that's also not good for long blades. To his credit RufusScorpius did mention the need to Stress relieve. To me it still seems a bit soft for larger swords in a monosteel. I do think keeping billets of 5160 to make spears for TEOTWAWKI is more useful than some of the stuff people rushed to buy in the last "global emergency". .
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 1, 2024 20:37:55 GMT
A CNC machine can cut out a sword shape in 90 seconds without heating up the metal 1 degree. When I was a manufacturing engineer I made gears for car seats one every 1.8 seconds, no additional treatment required.
As for marketing, nobody really knows what steel they're being sold now anyway, and a solid 35c spring steel with consistent quality would be a top seller if they just advertised it as Z-90 and said it was the latest boutique alloy. We might actually be getting a sword that would hold up nicely.
In any case, a sword is a weapon, not a tool. Historical swords were anywhere from 20-60c with the average around 35c or so, and lots of people died on the ends of them just fine.
Now, for a knife I would say that was way too soft, because knives are general purpose tools and much shorter than a sword and require better edge retention.
Just from a quality and consistency standpoint, taking into consideration the aspects of a Chinese forge, I would say that a better product can be made by eliminating the heat treatment process (if it's even being done now anyway). Modern billet steel is far better than what ancient smiths could make from scratch, so there's literally no reason to duplicate their efforts when we are already starting where they finished.
But that argument is academic because I have exactly zero control over Chinese sword making 🤷
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 1, 2024 20:52:09 GMT
I doubt they have good CnC machines (if any) when they feel the need to make up something to be better than the rest and having seen a few videos on these chinese forges makes me doubt it even further. And historically speaking a lot of people died from wood, bone and stone, still wouldn't want a sword or axe made from stone when I intend to use it more than once. Honestly I don't think even the low end chinese makers would sell 35HRC or lower swords. EDIT: At least not without disappearing after selling a few 800$ pieces.
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Post by izzy on Jan 1, 2024 20:58:55 GMT
I have no earthly idea why they would rename 5160 as 'zs-1' other than the obvious (marketing). As I think about it...yea man they decided to rename one of the most common steels, which has a good reputation...as some special material that is proprietary to themselves. That's a bold move. It makes me think they might make some other bold moves. I do tend to trust LK Chen, I don't know that they have some high quality modern heat treatment, but I do think at minimum they try harder and they generally succeed. Here is another tale. I had a Longquan made sword that was claimed to be 65mn. I sent it to Peters to be annealed and re-heattreated according to ht parameters consistent with 65mn. It shattered on the first cut. It was very likely not even close to 65mn. 65mn is not an expensive steel and I have no doubt they use it there, but as many have said, they are probably using what they have that day that is 'good enough' Sorry to read about that sword....what a waste on so many levels.
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Post by metinemre on Jan 3, 2024 4:07:53 GMT
specs updated with 5160 now.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 3, 2024 4:53:03 GMT
specs updated with 5160 now. ![doh1.png](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/nRZGaozzKHoeilBYUGHK.png)
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 3, 2024 6:19:00 GMT
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Post by metinemre on Jan 4, 2024 0:47:02 GMT
Now I`m wondering, what is ZXN-275J and what they improved in their smelted steel and which steel it is close to :) I`m not buying anything if I don`t know what it is.
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 6:44:49 GMT
specs updated with 5160 now. Price updated to 699 as well for the full set on the USA site. ![:(](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) At that price it's a hard pass for me. Maybe I should not have asked for the Secret ingredient in the secret ingredient soup.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 6:59:48 GMT
specs updated with 5160 now. Price updated to 699 as well for the full set on the USA site. ![:(](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) At that price it's a hard pass for me. Maybe I should not have asked for the Secret ingredient in the secret ingredient soup. Price always was 699, but the menu started at the cheapest option, the tanto alone.
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 7:28:35 GMT
Price updated to 699 as well for the full set on the USA site. ![:(](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) At that price it's a hard pass for me. Maybe I should not have asked for the Secret ingredient in the secret ingredient soup. Price always was 699, but the menu started at the cheapest option, the tanto alone. When I first posted I checked the price and I am sure it was cheaper for the whole set ( 439 USD), yes I know about the drop down box, See my post to Andy on page 2, posted on January 1, 2024. If you wast to play mind games please try someone else.
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 7:55:56 GMT
No offense meant, but why do you expect a definitive or even true answer of someone who offers a kat/wak daisho for 260 bucks made of high performance alloy steel? No offense taken. It's actually a little deceptive in terms of price, as they are baiting the hook If you go to the drop down box it's more like 439 for all three, still cheap, but not too cheap if they actually wanted to put some quality HT into it. Of course, that is a big "IF" and the odds of that are slim.
Sorry to have to Quote this Andi. No one disputed the price, with the drop down box then. But some people just like to argue for arguments sake and have fun wasting my time and data ( not talking about you Andi). Mr. Stabby knows a lot of things, but he assumes others are idiots he can play with.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 8:22:56 GMT
For me it has been 699 from the beginning. No need to get angry mate. 260-280-280-699 from the first time I opened the link at 31.12.23
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jan 4, 2024 8:55:46 GMT
I hadn't seen that the 260 $ were only for the tanto. I didn't went into the ordering list because I wasn't interested and on first look they seemed to offer the whole set or 260 $. In this price range I'd rather buy the Hanwei tacs (again).
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 9:05:14 GMT
For me it has been 699 from the beginning. No need to get angry mate. 260-280-280-699 from the first time I opened the link at 31.12.23
Unless they were playing games giving different prices to different regions, no it was not. If you had read the full thread before posting you would have known I knew about the drop down box. Stop assuming because you are smart other people are stupid.
You gave me no "benefit of the doubt" So I give you no "benefit of the doubt" either. You are not a nice person, and just trying to cover your scat.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 9:21:15 GMT
For me it has been 699 from the beginning. No need to get angry mate. 260-280-280-699 from the first time I opened the link at 31.12.23
Unless they were playing games giving different prices to different regions, no it was not. If you had read the full thread before posting you would have known I knew about the drop down box. Stop assuming because you are smart other people are stupid. Then they probably were giving different prices, always has been 699 for me. I am not assuming you are stupid, it's just always been 699 here on my end, maybe you got some sort of bargain at first, IDK. BTW: I assume everybody can make mistakes, even me (especially me), so I am sorry to have offended you.
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 9:39:28 GMT
I hadn't seen that the 260 $ were only for the tanto. I didn't went into the ordering list because I wasn't interested and on first look they seemed to offer the whole set or 260 $. In this price range I'd rather buy the Hanwei tacs (again). Right, I know that, honest mistakes are honest mistakes. WE are HUMAN, perfection belongs to God. At the time I wrote the price for the full set ( on page 2) it was 439 USD for me.
I quoted you only because of "Mr. Stabby", not to put you on the defensive.
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 9:53:47 GMT
Unless they were playing games giving different prices to different regions, no it was not. If you had read the full thread before posting you would have known I knew about the drop down box. Stop assuming because you are smart other people are stupid. Then they probably were giving different prices, always has been 699 for me. I am not assuming you are stupid, it's just always been 699 here on my end, maybe you got some sort of bargain at first, IDK. BTW: I assume everybody can make mistakes, even me (especially me), so I am sorry to have offended you.
I missed the 10% off sale by 2 days, but 10% did not cover the difference between the 2 prices. Maybe they lowered it, and then raised it IDK, maybe not...but from now on no "benefit of the doubt" for you, as you give others none. You are Aggressive, and then pretend to be passive when cornered. You like to argue over nothing and spoil the fun. And I don't want or need your "apology" as it is a "fig leaf" to cover your bad actions.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 4, 2024 9:55:46 GMT
For me it has been 699 from the beginning. No need to get angry mate. 260-280-280-699 from the first time I opened the link at 31.12.23
Unless they were playing games giving different prices to different regions, no it was not. If you had read the full thread before posting you would have known I knew about the drop down box. Stop assuming because you are smart other people are stupid.
You gave me no "benefit of the doubt" So I give you no "benefit of the doubt" either. You are not a nice person, and just trying to cover your scat.
I meant no offense, my memory isn't that good that I remember that price. Also gotta be honest, it's a pretty small thing to make such a fuss about and make the deduction that I am "not a nice person". And seeing agression where there is none is your problem not mine.
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Post by izzy on Jan 4, 2024 10:02:42 GMT
Unless they were playing games giving different prices to different regions, no it was not. If you had read the full thread before posting you would have known I knew about the drop down box. Stop assuming because you are smart other people are stupid.
You gave me no "benefit of the doubt" So I give you no "benefit of the doubt" either. You are not a nice person, and just trying to cover your scat.
I meant no offense, my memory isn't that good that I remember that price. Also gotta be honest, it's a pretty small thing to make such a fuss about and make the deduction that I am "not a nice person". And seeing agression where there is none is your problem not mine.
Memory not good? Why not? You were so sure before? What medical condition do you have?
You are not my problem, you are the problem of those who might have to live with you, (unless you live alone). But you impinge on my reputation here...and now I don't know what to think about you.
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