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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 11:43:27 GMT
I was looking at a Tactical Katana / Wakizashi set from Dragon Sword/ Zesy/ Swordcn, and I can't find info on ZS-1 Steel.
( I am aware of a site that has in stock in the USA, so I would be ordering from swordis.com)
I could guess it's S-1, but I don't want to presume anything other than this may be a proprietary name, and info is limited.
I do intend to contact the seller and ask about Niku on the blade ( secondary bevel), but any info on quality of the steel, general thoughts on Heat treat vs. an RVA-Katana "Midnight Vortex 9260" ( "Moritaka / Shienken of swords"" that has has no serious Niku), or any any thoughts in general would be appreciated.
Please excuse any Misspellings.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 31, 2023 12:05:55 GMT
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 31, 2023 12:31:14 GMT
Yup, never heard of it, nothing I could google, except the mentioned link for a zinc material. IMHO not worth to spend time on.
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 12:41:20 GMT
Maybe Z = Zsey If it's "high alloy" steel, as described, one would *think* it's not 1060 or 10XX series like UC. Yah, I don't think that link for "Secondary Zinc" is it either, but thank you for trying. Proprietary re-naming is just a source of confusion for us all.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 31, 2023 13:06:02 GMT
Maybe Z = Zsey If it's "high alloy" steel, as described, one would *think* it's not 1060 or 10XX series like UC. Yah, I don't think that link for "Secondary Zinc" is it either, but thank you for trying. Proprietary re-naming is just a source of confusion for us all. That could be, I have seen a few "name brand" versions of S1 being mentioned while looking around. S1 looks pretty OK for a sword, the 58HRC are along the lines what you get on S1 knives, a bit high for a sword unless it's DH. The whole thing is a bit suspect to me, also why do they not show the blade? "this sword is non-detachable" - Does this mean it is welded to the scabbard? Probably means that the hilt does not disassemble.
Added the zink alloy just because it was the only alloy of that exact name out there it seems.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 31, 2023 13:27:31 GMT
Probably it's another Longquan name for 1045.
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 13:37:39 GMT
Maybe Z = Zsey If it's "high alloy" steel, as described, one would *think* it's not 1060 or 10XX series like UC. Yah, I don't think that link for "Secondary Zinc" is it either, but thank you for trying. Proprietary re-naming is just a source of confusion for us all. That could be, I have seen a few "name brand" versions of S1 being mentioned while looking around. S1 looks pretty OK for a sword, the 58HRC are along the lines what you get on S1 knives, a bit high for a sword unless it's DH. The whole thing is a bit suspect to me, also why do they not show the blade? "this sword is non-detachable" - Does this mean it is welded to the scabbard? Probably means that the hilt does not disassemble.
Added the zink alloy just because it was the only alloy of that exact name out there it seems.
Agreed. Actually it's quite funny the only exact name match leads to a zinc alloy.
No pics of the blade is quite weird...maybe if it's TH blade and no brushed hamon, and their just plain embarrassed about it.
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kaiyo
Member
Posts: 1,201
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Post by kaiyo on Dec 31, 2023 13:54:06 GMT
its their "own" brand steel...pretty ridiclious iyam
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 14:06:42 GMT
Gawd, I hope not. That is always a possibility though. When I have better internet ( after midnight, it's a data issue) I can always try and ask and see where that gets me... Probably it's another Longquan name for 1045.
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 14:20:02 GMT
its their "own" brand steel...pretty ridiclious iyam Aye Mystery steel. Hoping someone can enlighten us.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 20:21:31 GMT
I am pretty sure I saw this same set elsewhere with the steel listed as '65mn' which is a fairly standard 6 point carbon steel.
If you go looking, you will see the same products coming out of Longquan under various brand names and various claimed steel types. What steel is it actually? My guess would be whatever they found cheap this month that will hold together well enough after a heat treat which consists of nothing more than either an edge quench in oil or, in 'through tempered swords', an interrupted quench. So yea probably something equivalent to 1045 or 1060.
The Chinese mass production apparatus does impressive work, but they don't bother with anything but the simplest of heat treatments because even the simplest of heat treatments is good enough for what 99% of buyers, even of the high dollar swords, will ever do with the sword. I've watched as many Chinese knife/sword factory vids as I could find and have yet to see a single heat treating oven.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Dec 31, 2023 20:30:45 GMT
It's a kind of Chinesium alloy used primarily in marketing literature .
As has been pointed out many times on this forum, the alloy doesn't matter as much as the quality of the heat treatment.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 31, 2023 20:38:31 GMT
Though I don't trust that either when they aren't clear about what they use. I'd rather get "made from old leaf spring" than "super duper special steel nobody has ever heard before".
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 21:16:23 GMT
It's almost certainly made from a billet of 1045 or 1060. If you want leaf spring, the factories in Nepal and Indonesia from what I have seen frequently use those.
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 31, 2023 21:21:09 GMT
I just meant that being intransparent with the steel also makes me question the heat treat.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 31, 2023 21:30:51 GMT
As I mentioned earlier I have watched every Chinese sword factory video I could find, including private ones sent to me by people who work in that industry. A full heat treatment generally entails normalization (multiple cycles), heating to a specific temperature, quenching, then at least one tempering cycle for a specific time (typically at least an hour) and at a specific temperature. The heat treatments I have seen in LQ have been heating to a certain color in a coal forge, an interrupted quench (to avoid full hardness... so instead of quenching fully and tempering back they just pull it out of the quench early) and I think I once saw the blade put back in the coal for a minute or so. No specific anything and no modern equipment. Sometimes this goes ok and sometimes it doesn't at all. Majority of buyers won't know as nearly all swords stay on a wall or at worst go after some tatami or a couple of strikes on a 2x4. They don't bother with a good ht because an incredibly basic one is generally good enough. Training, heat treating ovens and their maintenance, and the electricity to run them are expensive.
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 22:11:38 GMT
I am pretty sure I saw this same set elsewhere with the steel listed as '65mn' which is a fairly standard 6 point carbon steel. If you go looking, you will see the same products coming out of Longquan under various brand names and various claimed steel types. What steel is it actually? My guess would be whatever they found cheap this month that will hold together well enough after a heat treat which consists of nothing more than either an edge quench in oil or, in 'through tempered swords', an interrupted quench. So yea probably something equivalent to 1045 or 1060. The Chinese mass production apparatus does impressive work, but they don't bother with anything but the simplest of heat treatments because even the simplest of heat treatments is good enough for what 99% of buyers, even of the high dollar swords, will ever do with the sword. I've watched as many Chinese knife/sword factory vids as I could find and have yet to see a single heat treating oven. 65mn would be a fine with me, but as you say there is no way of knowing what it is, even if marketed as "X", "Y", or "Z".
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 22:26:45 GMT
As I mentioned earlier I have watched every Chinese sword factory video I could find, including private ones sent to me by people who work in that industry. A full heat treatment generally entails normalization (multiple cycles), heating to a specific temperature, quenching, then at least one tempering cycle for a specific time (typically at least an hour) and at a specific temperature. The heat treatments I have seen in LQ have been heating to a certain color in a coal forge, an interrupted quench (to avoid full hardness... so instead of quenching fully and tempering back they just pull it out of the quench early) and I think I once saw the blade put back in the coal for a minute or so. No specific anything and no modern equipment. Sometimes this goes ok and sometimes it doesn't at all. Majority of buyers won't know as nearly all swords stay on a wall or at worst go after some tatami or a couple of strikes on a 2x4. They don't bother with a good ht because an incredibly basic one is generally good enough. Training, heat treating ovens and their maintenance, and the electricity to run them are expensive. Och.
That explains why a well known seller just basically dodged my questions on his higher end swords. That is worse than I was led to believe. I thought only the cheapest blades were "1/2 baked." It's one thing to heat to a certain color ( non exact temps, no thermocouple, etc.), a lot of smiths do that all over the world, and that is how it was done in the old days.... BUT to not fully harden a TH blade ( shortcut to avoid tempering), well that's just a Horrible IMHO.
FWIW do you think Cheness was done the same way? ( shortcut Hardening temper?) I still have a sword or two from them. Is it not possible that there are few forges that do things the right way?
The last 3 blades I bought were from the Philippines, and while no place is perfect, I do think they tend to make a good product on average.
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Post by izzy on Dec 31, 2023 22:54:49 GMT
Just sent off 2 e-mails, if I get a "definitive" answer I will inform the community. I appreciate the facts as hard as they may be.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 31, 2023 23:33:29 GMT
No offense meant, but why do you expect a definitive or even true answer of someone who offers a kat/wak daisho for 260 bucks made of high performance alloy steel?
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