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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 29, 2023 18:16:38 GMT
I've never been a gun guy and please forgive the long story here...
Two years ago, my wife's coworkers got robbed twice in a month by what were likely desperate drug fiends, given that this was not a luxurious home and things were strewn about everywhere after the thefts. Last year an older gentleman on the corner got robbed via 'distraction'...i.e. he was approached by fake utility workers, lured outside, and his safe was then made off with. Nonviolent but still unnerving. I found out later that a car I had noticed which was not infrequently parked in an odd spot was, in fact, probably a casing car. It was reported and it has never showed up again. I had told myself I was being ridiculous but my paranoia wasn't unfounded. About a month later, a car was stolen across the street.
So I decided to purchase a firearm. Thankfully nothing violent had occurred, but I wanted to feel I had the capability to defend my family. Once I purchased the firearm, as is my wont, I went down the research black hole. I was not looking to collect, I just wanted to make the best choice for home defense. Just like with swords, the gun world is filled with hearsay and elitism, and tons of contradictory opinions.
I purchased a 9mm carbine, which was supposed to be a great home defense choice, until I realized after doing some playing out of a scenario that it would put me in positions where it could be wrestled away and would require awkwardness to go through some hallways. Also I read that 9mm can be ineffective against people under the influence.
I purchased a shotgun with a pistol grip but then found out pistol grip shotguns can be pretty painful to shoot.
I bought a semi-auto and double barrel because they were cool.
I bought an inexpensive 10mm pistol that was supposed to be very reliable...it had a jamming issue which I eventually resolved with a new clip and tightening my grip but it still made me a little nervous.
I purchased a high quality 10mm pistol.
So I bought all this stuff...I then later saw two videos with fairly well set up evaluations of the penetration potential of common rounds. I learned that practically every round, if the target is missed, is very capable of going through enough house cladding to injure or kill an innocent person or pet next to your home or across the street. I found out that an FBI test conducted years ago found similar results.
I soon after happened upon a study derived from actual combat data discussing which rounds are able to end a threat in a single round. No pistol calibers stood out...not even .44 mag. The only reliable one shot stops were rifles in 5.56 and shotguns. Considering both not harming an innocent person and a one shot stop, humble #4 buckshot is discussed as the most logical home defense round, and it is probably going to be the only home defense option for me.
None of this actual data is discussed much on the firearm forums, rather most gun dudes in my opinion seem to own and suggest their preferred items regardless of context.
So there was no point to either the pistols or the carbine. I also didn't need three shotguns I should have just gotten one shotgun with a short barrel and a birdshead, not pistol grip. I Never set out to collect guns but I feel I probably wasted around $3k....I am just not going to risk harming someone/going to jail. Sorry for that ramble. Thoughts?
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 18:49:18 GMT
It's shot placement. Even a .22 can stop someone in one shot if you hit the brain. You get added "area damage" with rifles, you don't have to hit the vitals directly therefore you can be less accurate. That's why they are more lethal, they rip more tissue not directly in the path of the bullet. The shotgun is probably the best option for wood frame houses, though you still need to be wary, buchshot still can punch through a lot of drywall. On the other hand it's not as nimble as a pistol or SBR and you might have trouble in doorways and stuff. BTW I have read if you shoot somebody in the hip, they will very likely drop down to the floor. So this is an option with almost any calibre giving you time to finish what you started. The muscles around a gunshot wound will spasm, if it hapopens in the hip area, you won't be able to stay upright (especially if the joint or hip are fractured as well). It's like a punch to the liver which also can drop people very easily if done right. Just thought it might be an easier target to hit than a head for an instant incapacitation.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 29, 2023 19:12:42 GMT
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Post by Mark Millman on Dec 29, 2023 19:20:03 GMT
Dear Tiers1,
I'm curious: Were your wife's co-workers at home when they were robbed?
Best,
Mark Millman
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Post by howler on Dec 29, 2023 19:53:30 GMT
Tiers 1, you don't need to worry about the effectiveness of your 9mm carbine because it is a carbine (short barreled rifle) 16"-18" (guessing) barrel length, not a 3"-4.5" (pistol) barrel length. The energy difference is STAGGERING!
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 20:08:31 GMT
Tiers 1, you don't need to worry about the effectiveness of your 9mm carbine because it is a carbine (short barreled rifle) 16"-18" (guessing) barrel length, not a 3"-4.5" (pistol) barrel length. The energy difference is STAGGERING! True. You still won't get nowhere near rifle energy though, it's a 50% increase in energy maximum with 9mm over the stats on the ammo box. Its still only a pistol cartridge with relatively little powder where anything over 15" barrel length won't add energy but subtract from it (just ballparking from the videos I have seen). EDIT: Depends on the action and specific firearm where exactly the glodilocks zone is
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tera
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Post by tera on Dec 29, 2023 20:30:49 GMT
Tiers 1, you don't need to worry about the effectiveness of your 9mm carbine because it is a carbine (short barreled rifle) 16"-18" (guessing) barrel length, not a 3"-4.5" (pistol) barrel length. The energy difference is STAGGERING! Just a note that in the United States "Short Barreled Rifle" (or SBR) has a legal definition and is a category of firearm legal to own but restricted by the NFA. Any rifle/carbine, or firearm made from one, with an overall length less than 26 inches or barrel length less than 16" is considered an SBR. Consult legal counsel if considering use of NFA items for personal defense. It's not illegal, but raises the stakes.
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Post by Tiers1 on Dec 29, 2023 20:45:45 GMT
To Mark- no, they weren't home thankfully.
I am in a state where SBRs are restricted.
Regarding the carbine I had read a bunch of stuff saying a 9mm carbine is great for home defense. Then I also found a bunch of stuff saying that someone in a hd situation needs a pistol because having the other hand free is crucially important. Personally given penetration concerns I think a short barreled shotgun held at the hip loaded with #4 buckshot is the best possible option. Imagine being in this kind of a situation with your pistol that you know if you miss you could hit your neighbor or their pet. #4 buckshot has the best chance of not over penetrating on a missed shot. Hollow point helps but the pressure of what happens if the shot misses...hp can certainly go through a couple of layers of drywall and vinyl cladding.
I feel like a lot of people don't discuss this much because they are confident they wouldn't miss at short range but I feel like it's a possibility in a situation like this.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 29, 2023 20:50:24 GMT
One thing you didn’t talk about was ammo type for the pistols. Hollow point and expansion rounds will not over penetrate like full metal jacket. I have Hydra-Shok in my 9 mm. I also have a bunch of Black Talon for it. Those kind of rounds don’t leave the body and if you miss they don’t go thru as much material as fmj. Agree it doesn’t have the stopping power of bigger rounds but the gun is just perfect in my hands so it’s my go to.
Your right about pistol grips on shotguns is painful. I have a Mossberg 590 and I’ve had practically every stock setup there is on it. When I had just a pistol grip on it it would start hurting first shot and only got worse. Now I have a Knox stock on it. It’s a combo pistol/shoulder stock with dampers to reduce recoil. Not at home right now but I have an instructional video (yes vhs, that old) on shotgun defense. It was very valuable in showing how to approach corners and how to hold the shotgun when doing so. I’m sure there’s a lot of similar stuff on YouTube.
Lastly, mrstabby talks about disabling shots. Some might disagree with me here but I’m never going to do that. When I’m done I only want one person to tell the story of what happened, me. Of course when your in a self defense situation adrenaline is pumping and fine motor skills go down. That’s why military an police are trained to hit center mass. One other thing that you may need to or already have done is prepare yourself mentally for taking a life. Personally I don’t think I would have a problem with that but you never know until you’re there.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 20:56:50 GMT
Lastly, mrstabby talks about disabling shots. Some might disagree with me here but I’m never going to do that. When I’m done I only want one person to tell the story of what happened, me. Of course when your in a self defense situation adrenaline is pumping and fine motor skills go down. That’s why military an police are trained to hit center mass. One other thing that you may need to or already have done is prepare yourself mentally for taking a life. Personally I don’t think I would have a problem with that but you never know until you’re there. Not what I meant. Even a few center mass shots can leave the other guy time to shoot back at you, not that easy when hes seizing on the floor. Also a pelvis shot is by no means a disabling shot, the likelyhood of the femoral artery being severed is quite high and even with propermedical intervention death is very likely in a few minutes. It has a very high likelyhood of interrupting the intruders action, center mass does not, at leat not instantly. EDIT: Shooting center mass is the easiest way, not the quickest, else they'd be training for headshots. But those are hard, especially if you don't train much. And any such situation will degrade your accuracy unless you have done it many times.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 29, 2023 21:11:56 GMT
Lastly, mrstabby talks about disabling shots. Some might disagree with me here but I’m never going to do that. When I’m done I only want one person to tell the story of what happened, me. Of course when your in a self defense situation adrenaline is pumping and fine motor skills go down. That’s why military an police are trained to hit center mass. One other thing that you may need to or already have done is prepare yourself mentally for taking a life. Personally I don’t think I would have a problem with that but you never know until you’re there. Not what I meant. Even a few center mass shots can leave the other guy time to shoot back at you, not that easy when hes seizing on the floor. Also a pelvis shot is by no means a disabling shot, the likelyhood of the femoral artery being severed is quite high and even with propermedical intervention death is very likely in a few minutes. Sorry didn’t mean to say that’s what you were suggesting just referencing it to make my point. And you’re completely right, no shot is guaranteed to put someone down immediately unless it happens to hit one of the vital organs. That’s why if I ever have to do this I’m putting several shot into them. The mag I keep in my pistol is a seventeen round loaded with fifteen rounds and one in the chamber. At least 3-4 rds in the first person then see what’s what. But of course we’ve all heard the saying that all plans go out the window when first contact is made. Or something like that.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 21:22:52 GMT
Not what I meant. Even a few center mass shots can leave the other guy time to shoot back at you, not that easy when hes seizing on the floor. Also a pelvis shot is by no means a disabling shot, the likelyhood of the femoral artery being severed is quite high and even with propermedical intervention death is very likely in a few minutes. Sorry didn’t mean to say that’s what you were suggesting just referencing it to make my point. And you’re completely right, no shot is guaranteed to put someone down immediately unless it happens to hit one of the vital organs. That’s why if I ever have to do this I’m putting several shot into them. The mag I keep in my pistol is a seventeen round loaded with fifteen rounds and one in the chamber. At least 3-4 rds in the first person then see what’s what. But of course we’ve all heard the saying that all plans go out the window when first contact is made. Or something like that. I get it better safe than sorry, I just have seen a few videos of police shootouts, and most of the times somebody falls like a tree without being D-E-D its a pelvis hit, so it does work spectacularly, if you can hit it. And it seems to work with almost anything. Maybe even knives, someone who got stabbed in the side of the pelvis said, that it was really hard to move, like the whole foot was in plaster. Adrenaline will f up your aim and your plan. Though much depends on the intruder, many will flee as soon as they see someone is home, some have other plans.... Fortunately the likelyhood for this happening to my home is low, so I am not really in a position to talk. Not saying I never thought about it, but armed intruders are very unlikely here, a blank gun at most, and even then they won't do anything. Likelyhood of getting away without a gun is much higher than with.
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Post by howler on Dec 29, 2023 21:27:50 GMT
To Mark- no, they weren't home thankfully. I am in a state where SBRs are restricted. Regarding the carbine I had read a bunch of stuff saying a 9mm carbine is great for home defense. Then I also found a bunch of stuff saying that someone in a hd situation needs a pistol because having the other hand free is crucially important. Personally given penetration concerns I think a short barreled shotgun held at the hip loaded with #4 buckshot is the best possible option. Imagine being in this kind of a situation with your pistol that you know if you miss you could hit your neighbor or their pet. #4 buckshot has the best chance of not over penetrating on a missed shot. Hollow point helps but the pressure of what happens if the shot misses...hp can certainly go through a couple of layers of drywall and vinyl cladding. I feel like a lot of people don't discuss this much because they are confident they wouldn't miss at short range but I feel like it's a possibility in a situation like this. Regarding the need for a free hand, put a sling on all your long guns, thus giving the ability to open doors, grab things, etc...
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Post by howler on Dec 29, 2023 21:32:24 GMT
Tiers 1, you don't need to worry about the effectiveness of your 9mm carbine because it is a carbine (short barreled rifle) 16"-18" (guessing) barrel length, not a 3"-4.5" (pistol) barrel length. The energy difference is STAGGERING! True. You still won't get nowhere near rifle energy though, it's a 50% increase in energy maximum with 9mm over the stats on the ammo box. Its still only a pistol cartridge with relatively little powder where anything over 15" barrel length won't add energy but subtract from it (just ballparking from the videos I have seen). EDIT: Depends on the action and specific firearm where exactly the glodilocks zone is
My first choice is AR type carbine in 5.56, with sling. Also, have a handgun in a holster on your belt and a fighting blade on your bulletproof chest rig. No reason to not have all three at once, with each supporting the other two.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 29, 2023 21:41:43 GMT
Sorry didn’t mean to say that’s what you were suggesting just referencing it to make my point. And you’re completely right, no shot is guaranteed to put someone down immediately unless it happens to hit one of the vital organs. That’s why if I ever have to do this I’m putting several shot into them. The mag I keep in my pistol is a seventeen round loaded with fifteen rounds and one in the chamber. At least 3-4 rds in the first person then see what’s what. But of course we’ve all heard the saying that all plans go out the window when first contact is made. Or something like that. I get it better safe than sorry, I just have seen a few videos of police shootouts, and most of the times somebody falls like a tree without being D-E-D its a pelvis hit, so it does work spectacularly, if you can hit it. And it seems to work with almost anything. Maybe even knives, someone who got stabbed in the side of the pelvis said, that it was really hard to move, like the whole foot was in plaster. Adrenaline will f up your aim and your plan. Though much depends on the intruder, many will flee as soon as they see someone is home, some have other plans.... Fortunately the likelyhood for this happening to my home is low, so I am not really in a position to talk. Not saying I never thought about it, but armed intruders are very unlikely here, a blank gun at most, and even then they won't do anything. Likelyhood of getting away without a gun is much higher than with. You’re right again. Pelvis shots can do so much damage and disabling. I figure I’ll start low with the first shot, around the belly and let recoil do the rest for follow ups. But again, all plans blah blah. Iirc you live in Europe , specifically England but I could be misremembering. If so , yeah you don’t have the same situation as us yanks but it’s good to think about these things so you’re mentally prepared just in case.
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Post by pellius on Dec 29, 2023 21:42:21 GMT
IMHO, if you’re gonna deal with the bulk of a carbine, might as well opt for the far more powerful rifle rounds to go with it.
Pretty much any round will go straight thru interior dry wall. If you are likely to have friendlies in other rooms, a shotgun blast may send shot their way even if you have good target discipline.
Maybe consider tailoring your weapon to your anticipated threat. Tricksters will be gone before you even recognize the danger. A gun won’t help at all.
Random crime-of-opportunity bandits might be deterred simply by being shot at, regardless of the weapon type.
Dedicated harm-doers may show up well armed, armored, and with friends, all prepared to go the full distance.
Keeping porch and walkway lights on or motion activated, upgrading your locks to something a novice can’t pick, replacing your door hinge and deadbolt screws with 3 inchers that screw all the way into the door/wall framing, and putting a shatter resistant film on your windows might be a good, affordable and transparent first step. Being on first name talking terms with neighbors is probably a good idea, too.
Something as simple as privacy-locking bedroom doors at night will make unsophisticated intruders easy to detect and delay.
A decent breed dog has an extremely high return on investment for security, even if it’s too small to actually interdict a burglar. No one is gonna sneak into your residence, even if the power is out.
After that, electronic cameras and alarm systems can be quite useful.
Also, keeping phones on nightstands to call for help is a no-brainer. Perhaps identify the appropriate emergency number to call, put it on speed dial, and have everyone in your home know how to clearly relay location info to emergency responders.
Maybe even have planned areas of retreat, so that defenders have no-shoot zones.
Using a weapon as a pre-prepared component of an integrated security system is far more likely to be effective with less risk of collateral damage and injury.
Just mtc.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 29, 2023 21:46:06 GMT
Tier1 you’re right about the #4 buckshot. Almost all I’ve read recommends it for home defense. 00 buckshot is 33 caliber balls so can definitely over penetrate. Good luck to you brother and hope you never have to use any of it.
Guns are like condoms. It’s better to have one and not need it than to need one and not have it.
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Arlequin
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Post by Arlequin on Dec 29, 2023 21:50:42 GMT
Just my two cents. Being comfortable with the gun is the most important thing. Find a gun you like, then go the range and put a few hundred rounds through it till it feels like an extention of you. As far choices,as i assume you realized a simple 12 Guage shotgun with buckshot is the most optimal choice, my personal choice for a side arm is a 7 shot revolver in .357, very reliable round that is also compatible with some rifles. No one is John Wick, and these altercations end very fast and is basically decided by who has the best nerve in the moment so there's not much point buying these large mag guns unless you genuinely like them and are willing to train to use them efficiently.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Dec 29, 2023 21:54:04 GMT
I get it better safe than sorry, I just have seen a few videos of police shootouts, and most of the times somebody falls like a tree without being D-E-D its a pelvis hit, so it does work spectacularly, if you can hit it. And it seems to work with almost anything. Maybe even knives, someone who got stabbed in the side of the pelvis said, that it was really hard to move, like the whole foot was in plaster. Adrenaline will f up your aim and your plan. Though much depends on the intruder, many will flee as soon as they see someone is home, some have other plans.... Fortunately the likelyhood for this happening to my home is low, so I am not really in a position to talk. Not saying I never thought about it, but armed intruders are very unlikely here, a blank gun at most, and even then they won't do anything. Likelyhood of getting away without a gun is much higher than with. You’re right again. Pelvis shots can do so much damage and disabling. I figure I’ll start low with the first shot, around the belly and let recoil do the rest for follow ups. But again, all plans blah blah. Iirc you live in Europe , specifically England but I could be misremembering. If so , yeah you don’t have the same situation as us yanks but it’s good to think about these things so you’re mentally prepared just in case. Austria. I would not have the problem of friendly fire through walls either. The inside walls being 20cm/8" concrete could probably stop most common rifle bullets. To the outsode its more like 50cm/16", old house, built like a bunker. I don't have a guard dog, but a cat in the dark going in between your legs while you walk can also be dangerous.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Dec 29, 2023 21:55:05 GMT
Pellius makes some great points. I highly recommend the longer screws in the deadbolt especially. I’m a handyman and I do that for clients, mainly my female/single mom clients. Manufacturers are actually putting longer screws in their products now. And most robberies nowadays happen in the day when people are at work. And the thieves just kick the door in and grab what they can quickly. Of course with people working from home now it could be a recipe for disaster.
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