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Post by nddave on Nov 4, 2023 19:07:37 GMT
Which do you have? I have the 15th century Longsword of Type XVII and found it quite comparable to or slightly above the two Squire Line swords I handle both the Viking and XIIa sword. What really impressed me with the fit and finish of the Type XVII was the blade geometry and transition point as well as the riccasso and its termination to the blade. Was also impressed with the peening and octagonal grip finish. Scabbard was kind of rudimentary but still much nicer than the usual Windlass all leather ones.
I have the Type XIV arming sword. It is a good sword, but I think some of the reviewers overhyped the products. It is probably the best sword from Windlass that I have handled, and it is not priced unreasonably for a sword with a scabbard included.
True but it's also quite basic in design and I don't think any maker really could improve on the design any more than Windlass could. In retrospect the original itself is quite bulky and unattractive, especially for a Type XIV. It's extra long has a thin unappealing fuller and the pommel and gaurd are oddly shaped and in my opinion quite unattractive. Simply put it's kinda just a "blah" sword. Even if Albion or Valiant made a version I don't think it would be anymore appealing or better handling, and if it was then it's because they took liberties rather than exact specs like Windlass did, to make it so. As again the original by design looks like an ugly, unwieldy clunker. Honestly I kinda wish they would have went with another sword to be featured as the Arming Sword or the Royal Armories line. Maybe a Type XVI or XIX that would have really popped in both asthetics and handling.
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Post by eastman on Nov 4, 2023 21:21:11 GMT
Compare the Windlass/RA Type XIV to the Albion Solingen (they have the same type of pommel). The wider fuller of the Solingen looks better than the very narrow fuller of the W/RA, but that is the nature of copying a museum original - the design choices were already made hundreds of years ago. The circle with the TOTO markings again is a historical design element that doesn't add a lot (I am not that big of a Toto fan, but "Hold the Line" is a classic).
The Solingen is by far the better sword, but the W/RA (including a scabbard) is 1/3 the price. If you like the medieval aesthetic in Tod's videos about sword craftsmanship, then the rippling blade of the RA won't bother you, especially for under $600. It all depends on priorities. The main point of my comment originally was that I don't believe the W/RA line shows that they are capable of producing to the quality level of Valiant or Albion.
That said, the world does need more Type XVI sword options.
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 5, 2023 5:04:40 GMT
I highly doubt the Albion Solingen has significantly better handling than the Windlass/RA Type XIV, which I also own and use heavily. The Windlass/RA has very slick handling, a very broad CoP, excellent edge geometry. There's a sophistication to the feel that is 100 percent on par with the tip top of swords. All this said, I know it's still a Windlass and mileage may vary specimen from specimen and probably batch by batch. As far as fit and finish goes, it's far from Albion's Next Gen and Museum line swords. No arguments there, but it's fair to say that both brands are well within what you'd expect to see "back then." Albion probably exceeds the quality. eastman I personally prefer the design choices of the Royal Armouries antique to the Solingen antique. The big thing that the Squire line Albions have going for them over these new options is steel quality. The lower alloy steels, despite what some very talented smiths may claim, are not as durable as more modern formulations, not by a long shot. I've been in HEMA long enough to outlive quite a few training swords (in my hands or others'), and low alloy steels just don't cut it. They're fine as long as they're being used against each other, but the moment someone comes in with 5160, 6150, S7 or the like, they get chewed threw. The better steels last a good 3x longer in my experience, and my club hits pretty hard. This is not an issue for backyard cutting, though.
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Post by eastman on Nov 5, 2023 22:09:57 GMT
have you handled the Solingen? I don't own one, but I have played with the one on the wall in the Albion showroom and I thought it was better than my W/RA XIV. But that is to be expected considering the price difference. I would expect a BMW's handling to be superior to a Toyota.
I prefer the looks and handling of the Solingen, and the included scabbard and price tag of the W/RA. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by pellius on Nov 6, 2023 0:12:37 GMT
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Post by eastman on Nov 6, 2023 1:14:32 GMT
I should have been more specific and said "Z4 vs Camry"
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 6, 2023 7:08:16 GMT
eastman To be fair, I have not handled a Solingen, but I did prefer my RA to the Vigil, Sovereign, and 1.33. I tend to like powerful, sweeping single handers though. I still prefer my Arn to any of the previously mentioned swords, but even if I were to be nitpicky, my point is there's not much more to go up from from the RA 14th century. I would contend that all swords mentioned in this reply are so good that any difference in performance is negligible/preferential. In other words, any difference in performance, I'd chalk to user error. I don't mean to say that the RA Windlass is better than the Albion museum line sister sword; it's just that there's not much more to improve from. In other words, for this particular sword, you've peaked performance/dollar wise on this one particular attribute: handling. In context to the OPs question, 1) I don't think you gain any real handling improvement by spending more in this case. BUT 2) I will argue that that the steel alone in the Albion is worth at least an extra $300, based on my experience with trainers. AND 3) No question the fit and finish is far better on the Albion...even on the lesser known examples floating around the internet.
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 6, 2023 7:10:07 GMT
Yeah! The GR Corolla, Honda Type R, and Focus RS will, on the right type of track, give any Beemer a run for its money. Ironically because of the legendary status these models have earned due to their great value/money, with dealer markups, it's actually cheaper to get a Beemer in many cases
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Post by metinemre on Feb 20, 2024 6:05:05 GMT
Yeah! The GR Corolla, Honda Type R, and Focus RS will, on the right type of track, give any Beemer a run for its money. Ironically because of the legendary status these models have earned due to their great value/money, with dealer markups, it's actually cheaper to get a Beemer in many cases ;-| Supra is pretty much a BMW :)
I think my sweet spot reached to $1000 range. After owning sub $500 swords and then owning Atrims, Albions, VA`s. I wouldn`t spend a dime again on cheaper swords. Not because they are cheap but because how the difference is night and day when you can compare handling, balance, harmonics, distal taper and overall quality and the knowledge of bladesmith is involved in the making.
Because of my job I get to drive every model and brand cars every day. It`s hard to ignore and not fall in love with the handling of a BMW and it`s a sin to compare it with a Toyota,Honda, Ford or their luxury siblings. Or once you drive a M car in a racetrack you don`t even want to drive a mass production BMW again. Once your palate opens up you get pickier and appreciate the well made, special and rare. Cars, swords etc it`s all about how precise the object behaves when you command it.
At the end of the day it is about the value you see in your purchase, and your budget.
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Post by crazyjons on Feb 20, 2024 6:23:24 GMT
I get the analogy about sports cars and stuff but to continue with it you might only want to drive it on nice days when there's not a lot of gravel on the road and it's not going to snow etc. After getting both an Albion and a Valiant I have used them to cut and I dry handle them a lot but when I just feel like cutting up some milk cartons or bottles I grab a cheaper sword almost every time. Someone said that buying an Albion made them never want to spend money on a cheaper sword again, I totally understand that and wondered if it would happen to me too. It didn't, getting the nicer swords makes me appreciate the cost savings and disposability of the cheap stuff. Cold steel, windlass, hanwei... These brands are giving people permission to use swords by providing something that's "good" enough at an affordable price. Now I'm going back to eBay to look at more antique sabers LOL!
Jon
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Post by curiomansion on Feb 20, 2024 13:18:42 GMT
metinemre crazyjonsI think the car analogy is very apt. Rifting off of it, I have to point out how popular the Miata is as a training tool for professional drivers and drivers who wish to become professional. I'd much rather have an M3 day to day than a Miata (though it's not clear whether I should want that), but if we're looking at something as sporting equipment, a cheaper, functional tool has great value. One of the edges on my Albion Arn is approaching what I would call its "second edge." It's a bit of a subjective measurement for me, but I can just about perceive the geometry difference between it and my less used edge. Even though that edge has a given me a cut count in the thousands, I am kinda sad that it's getting worn down. In fact it's starting to turn me almost Japanese with regards to wanting to preserve the edges on my nicer pieces- or at least makes me less enthusiastic to put as many cuts on a sword as I wish. A lot of these new swords, I would argue, are 90 percent as good as my Albion's overall at between 50 and 30 percent of the cost. That last ten percent is worth giving up to have peace of mind wearing that blade down to a training blade. When I bought a Ronin Dojo Pro off of this sites recommendation, I was initially disappointed that the sword, despite being a well made sword, lacked that "it" factor my better pieces have. As a result, I ended up cutting with it so much that it's on it's fourth edge, and in my book, any life I get from it now it just extra. All that said, $1000 is a pretty good sweet spot in 2024, and if I'm being subjective, it's probably where mine is as well. I do think for most people, though the $500 dollar range is where the massive diminishing returns begin.
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Post by crazyjons on Feb 20, 2024 15:04:13 GMT
Totally! I felt the same thing when I bought my first dojo pro, and then a couple months later when I chop through an oak branch and hit a rock on the overswing and made a huge ding in the kissaki, I just laughed! "Oh well, that's why I have a belt sander." Same response when I found out that old plastic lawn chairs that had hardened in the Sun had a glass like quality that severely damaged the edge of that katana... "Hmm, good thing it wasn't the nice one."
Jon
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larason2
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Post by larason2 on Feb 20, 2024 22:29:16 GMT
I thought I read something once that when they dig up double edged swords, there's almost always a "more used" edge, and sometimes they didn't even bother to keep both sharp. I think it's human nature, the more a tool is used the more it changes to suit the eccentricity of its owner. Everyone has favourites, and even double edged swords have tiny imbalances that become easier to appreciate the more you use it, the grip gets worn so it's more comfortable in one hand than the other, etc. Even Raedwald first king of England, wore the gold trim on one side of his sword more by resting his hand on it more! At least in Japanese culture, these kind of things add value to the piece, they give them a history and make them more human.
That being said, I definitely have safe queens, and I don't want to break or damage one of my good swords!
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Post by atomicfear on Feb 21, 2024 20:10:15 GMT
'Sweet spot' for people interested in historical sword replicas is Albion. In some areas of sword design and execution, there is probably nothing better, no matter the price point. This is a niche hobby and there is no competition here really. In production world there is basically only Albion and some impostors. You may wonder if custom swords in the range of 2k-10k are worth it (that last '5%'). For a few, they are. For most, they are not and there are many individual reasons for that. But if you are interested in quality swords, the sweet spot is obvious. Everything below is an equivalent of a counterfeit pretending to be something it is not. Thanks for the advice. I'm a newb.
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Post by crazyjons on Feb 22, 2024 16:43:39 GMT
So I guess to get back to the topic at hand, there's a couple sweet spots. I think for katana's it's around $200 and for longswords and arming swords it's more like 400 or 500. For really nice swords it starts at a little over a thousand. That should get you where you want to go! At those prices you probably get 90% of perfection and if you don't know what you're really into yet that's plenty good enough.
Jon
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