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Post by ragebot on Nov 2, 2023 18:57:17 GMT
That's the CS Competition Cutting sword? YesYou get different/better steel if get something else but CS. And longer blades. EDIT: To explain, not only added material cost but the longer the blade, the harder it is to get things right, like weight, PoB and stiffness. If cutting is your thing, you should try a chinese oxtail Dao. Those cut like nothing else. Did a google on chinese oxtail Dao and will check them out. To me blade length is a double edge sword; at some point it is no longer realistic to use it one handed and I am trying to upgrade my dual wielding skills. That was my first cutting session with the CS and it lasted well over three hours. The sword seems undamaged but as a rule I at least use a strop to make sure there is no damage and then make sure the blade will cut paper the full last 2/3 of the blade. I am still not understanding the 'different/better steel'; I thought 1045 (whatever) was 1045 (whatever) but I also understand the hardening process needs to be done by skilled hands. Bottom line my probable next blade will be Hanwei Rodell Cutting Dao. www.kultofathena.com/product/rodell-cutting-dao/
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Post by nddave on Nov 2, 2023 19:01:15 GMT
takitam I think the guild system is a far cry from being equivalent to brands and certainly a shaky basis for modern classification. "Nowadays, it is excessive consumerism and fantasy, nerds buying sword replicas to feel like a beloved hero from a movie or history." Perhaps not the consumerism part, but looking at contemporary artwork, I'd say the medieval sword buyer was pretty into fantasy and feeling like a hero. Haha nddave I think the new RA Windlass line and LK Chen Euros are better in proportion to the price of the the old Hanwei and regular Windlasses. For me (with Euro style swords) I feel every dollar spent above $300 with the aforementioned two brands. I suspect this will change soon, as the euro sword market develops like the katana market. Fingers crossed. Indeed and I agree. A lot has changed an evolved over the last 20 years in regards to the sword market and a lot of that has to do with research and added focus on historical accuracy, especially in regards to European Medieval Swords. A big question a lot of members had with the RA Line was, can Windlass make a sword at the level of Albion or Valiant? I think they gave everyone a definite yes and they were able to keep it under the $1000 mark with scabbard. Balaur Arms has been a unique one indeed because we basically have 3 manufacturers make the same models under the same brand, all with pros and cons among the various models. The one thing I'd like to see from LK Chen is more focus on making a European Sword and not a Chinese Sword shaped like a European Sword. Which is a problem other Chinese manufacturers and forges have a problem doing. They either make them too bulky (Ronin/Kawashima types) or make them too thin/flexible (LK Chen) Hanwei does decent and have stepped up their European lines over the years but they also have the advantage of time and experience being the longest running Chinese manufacturer of European swords. If you look at all the manufacturers who've succeeded the most they've all had influence by knowledgeable European Sword researchers, smiths and scholars. For example Windlass with Hank Rhinehart, John Clements and Matt Easton. Hanwei with Michael Tinker Peirce, Valiant Armory with Angus Trim, Albion with Peter Johansson, and Del Tin with Fulvio Del-Tin. So yes the market has changed drastically in the last decade for sure and it's only getting better as more focus is being put on historical accuracy and proper blade and hilt design!
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 2, 2023 19:07:55 GMT
That's the CS Competition Cutting sword? YesYou get different/better steel if get something else but CS. And longer blades. EDIT: To explain, not only added material cost but the longer the blade, the harder it is to get things right, like weight, PoB and stiffness. If cutting is your thing, you should try a chinese oxtail Dao. Those cut like nothing else. Did a google on chinese oxtail Dao and will check them out. To me blade length is a double edge sword; at some point it is no longer realistic to use it one handed and I am trying to upgrade my dual wielding skills. That was my first cutting session with the CS and it lasted well over three hours. The sword seems undamaged but as a rule I at least use a strop to make sure there is no damage and then make sure the blade will cut paper the full last 2/3 of the blade. I am still not understanding the 'different/better steel'; I thought 1045 (whatever) was 1045 (whatever) but I also understand the hardening process needs to be done by skilled hands. Bottom line my probable next blade will be Hanwei Rodell Cutting Dao. www.kultofathena.com/product/rodell-cutting-dao/It's less about blade length and more about design if you can use it single handed. The LK Chen NiuWei Dao is 5" longer than the Hanwei Oxtail Dao, and quite a bit heavier, but they feel pretty equal when wielding. The NiuWei has more distal taper, which shifts the PoB, making it more wieldable at higher weight and longer blade. There are spring steels, like 5160, much tougher than the 10XX steels and keep an edge longer. 1045 can also be badly heat treated, so it just is a slab of unhardened iron. The spring steels are harder to heat treat than the 10 series, therefore cost more. While a 1045, 1065 blade will bend, a 1095 is more likely to break and the sring steels are able to bend significantly more before they are damaged.
The less wide Katana-looking Dao (which the Rodell is one of) are essentially copied Katanas. So it will behave quite similarly. EDIT: changed out "willow leaf" (Liuyedao), since I am not sure any more, it's either that or a goosequill (Yanmaodao)
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 2, 2023 20:14:35 GMT
ragebot That Cold Steel competition cutter is great fun and a lot of sword for the money! The steel is plenty good for backyard cutting. 1050 well heat treated is robust enough for even enthusiastic cutting. You don't really come across the shortcomings of basic steel until you start hitting other metal objects with force and consistency.
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 2, 2023 20:18:56 GMT
nddave Which LK Chen Euros did you feel were too thin and flexible? From what I've read, their 1860 is very accurate. The Ribaldo was made in collaboration with Matt Easton and is supposedly accurate as well. The scant reviews on their rapiers report the same thing. Are you referring to their Balaur collabs?
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 2, 2023 20:23:13 GMT
ragebot That Cold Steel competition cutter is great fun and a lot of sword for the money! The steel is plenty good for backyard cutting. 1050 well heat treated is robust enough for even enthusiastic cutting. You don't really come across the shortcomings of basic steel until you start hitting other metal objects with force and consistency. Probably true. Though you shouldn't hit anything too solid with any of the thin profile blades, even the best modernest steel won't save it.
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 2, 2023 20:25:27 GMT
ragebot That Cold Steel competition cutter is great fun and a lot of sword for the money! The steel is plenty good for backyard cutting. 1050 well heat treated is robust enough for even enthusiastic cutting. You don't really come across the shortcomings of basic steel until you start hitting other metal objects with force and consistency. Probably true. Though you shouldn't hit anything too solid with any of the thin profile blades, even the best modernest steel won't save it. Look up Delta 3V. There's some alchemy going on there! Haha
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 2, 2023 20:28:59 GMT
I chose a wrong thread to elaborate on the points I made, (again ) and my posts were largely off-topic and not relevant to the discussion at hand. I do believe they provide some value, but they would mean more and be better suited to a different thread. Apologies I thought it was a fine discussion! Barely tangential to the question of what you're paying for when you venture above $300.
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Post by nddave on Nov 2, 2023 20:30:02 GMT
nddave Which LK Chen Euros did you feel were too thin and flexible? From what I've read, their 1860 is very accurate. The Ribaldo was made in collaboration with Matt Easton and is supposedly accurate as well. The scant reviews on their rapiers report the same thing. Are you referring to their Balaur collabs? Yea the Italian and German Longswords have had reports of being overly flexible due to too much distal taper. The Rapier look nice but again look more like Jian with intricate hilts than actual Rapier. I'm definitely not complaining as they are all nice models especially their Alexandria sword. It's just a few nitpicks I'd like to see improved in future batches or models. They are definitely moving fast in the right direction as a new competitor offering mid-tier European Swords!
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Post by nddave on Nov 2, 2023 20:34:51 GMT
I chose a wrong thread to elaborate on the points I made, (again ) and my posts were largely off-topic and not relevant to the discussion at hand. I do believe they provide some value, but they would mean more and be better suited to a different thread. Apologies No they were fine and I feel enriched the debate we all had with each other. We all came from a different perspective and wr were all able to discuss and debate openly! Hell we got two pages now, when's the last time a thread like this even made two pages before either it was locked for behavior or simply ignored because everyone who would post was worried about being "too confrontational". It's all about shared perspective and opinions and yours is just as valid as any of ours.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 2, 2023 20:37:18 GMT
Probably true. Though you shouldn't hit anything too solid with any of the thin profile blades, even the best modernest steel won't save it. Look up Delta 3V. There's some alchemy going on there! Haha Not many super steel swords around. I would have guessed there would be more by now.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 2, 2023 20:44:02 GMT
nddave Which LK Chen Euros did you feel were too thin and flexible? From what I've read, their 1860 is very accurate. The Ribaldo was made in collaboration with Matt Easton and is supposedly accurate as well. The scant reviews on their rapiers report the same thing. Are you referring to their Balaur collabs? Yea the Italian and German Longswords have had reports of being overly flexible due to too much distal taper. The Rapier look nice but again look more like Jian with intricate hilts than actual Rapier. I'm definitely not complaining as they are all nice models especially their Alexandria sword. It's just a few nitpicks I'd like to see improved in future batches or models. They are definitely moving fast in the right direction as a new competitor offering mid-tier European Swords! Could just be variance in finish, I have seen 3 Gale Wind now, the weight , length and taper are varying by around 5%, but they all feel the same in motion (because the longer one had more distal taper, the heavier one had a lower PoB). To me it looks like they prioritise wieldability and the in-hand feeling of the blade. EDIT: Though their steel is quite springy compared to Windlass' 1065 of the same thickness. Might not lend itself to some blade geometries?
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Post by fivesidedpixels on Nov 2, 2023 22:03:40 GMT
nddave Which LK Chen Euros did you feel were too thin and flexible? From what I've read, their 1860 is very accurate. The Ribaldo was made in collaboration with Matt Easton and is supposedly accurate as well. The scant reviews on their rapiers report the same thing. Are you referring to their Balaur collabs? I own LK Chen’s Saxony rapier. Haven’t really gotten around to cutting with it, but it’s overly flexible in my opinion. It’s most noticeable in the thrust. When I perform a lunge, there’s a considerable amount of wobbling in the blade. Although I haven’t handled antiques, I feel that even HEMA sparring rapiers are stiffer. I don’t think a thrust-centric blade should bend so easily. I’m assuming the blade does fine with cuts, as the sword otherwise handles well, but I’d be using it more like a sidesword at that point. LK Chen’s customer service guy is pretty friendly in my experience, so I think it’s worth addressing this with him. I do think they have what it takes to make the best $500 rapier, though.
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Post by takitam on Nov 2, 2023 22:17:51 GMT
All right gents! Thanks for the discussion. See you in another thread Maybe one day I can get my hands on something by LK Chen. I would like to handle their Alexandria sword and that sidesword. But I'm not buying swords anymore fivesidedpixels: I have handled one antique rapier. Probably a dress, civilian weapon. I expected it to be very stiff. It was not But it was probably over 110cm long.
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Post by eastman on Nov 3, 2023 1:27:11 GMT
nddave Which LK Chen Euros did you feel were too thin and flexible? From what I've read, their 1860 is very accurate. The Ribaldo was made in collaboration with Matt Easton and is supposedly accurate as well. The scant reviews on their rapiers report the same thing. Are you referring to their Balaur collabs? I own LK Chen’s Saxony rapier. Haven’t really gotten around to cutting with it, but it’s overly flexible in my opinion. It’s most noticeable in the thrust. When I perform a lunge, there’s a considerable amount of wobbling in the blade. Although I haven’t handled antiques, I feel that even HEMA sparring rapiers are stiffer. I don’t think a thrust-centric blade should bend so easily. I’m assuming the blade does fine with cuts, as the sword otherwise handles well, but I’d be using it more like a sidesword at that point. LK Chen’s customer service guy is pretty friendly in my experience, so I think it’s worth addressing this with him. I do think they have what it takes to make the best $500 rapier, though.
I've had the Saxony for a while now. I love the feel and balance of the sword. I think the LK Chen standard philosophy is swords for cutting, so they made a wide bladed rapier that cuts well at the cost of it not being as stiff as it should be to be a good hole punch. The Arms & Armor rapier blades are much stiffer at 3x the cost of the Saxony.
The Munich side sword gets it perfect though. A good stiff thruster, but wide enough to be a really good cutter.
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Post by eastman on Nov 3, 2023 1:48:34 GMT
Indeed and I agree. A lot has changed an evolved over the last 20 years in regards to the sword market and a lot of that has to do with research and added focus on historical accuracy, especially in regards to European Medieval Swords. A big question a lot of members had with the RA Line was, can Windlass make a sword at the level of Albion or Valiant? I think they gave everyone a definite yes and they were able to keep it under the $1000 mark with scabbard...
I only have one of the RA Windlass swords, but it is not at the Albion or Valiant quality level. It is better than the Windlass "Sword of Robert the Bruce", but not to the construction quality of my squire line Albions.
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Post by nddave on Nov 3, 2023 2:38:59 GMT
Indeed and I agree. A lot has changed an evolved over the last 20 years in regards to the sword market and a lot of that has to do with research and added focus on historical accuracy, especially in regards to European Medieval Swords. A big question a lot of members had with the RA Line was, can Windlass make a sword at the level of Albion or Valiant? I think they gave everyone a definite yes and they were able to keep it under the $1000 mark with scabbard...
I only have one of the RA Windlass swords, but it is not at the Albion or Valiant quality level. It is better than the Windlass "Sword of Robert the Bruce", but not to the construction quality of my squire line Albions.
Which do you have? I have the 15th century Longsword of Type XVII and found it quite comparable to or slightly above the two Squire Line swords I handle both the Viking and XIIa sword. What really impressed me with the fit and finish of the Type XVII was the blade geometry and transition point as well as the riccasso and its termination to the blade. Was also impressed with the peening and octagonal grip finish. Scabbard was kind of rudimentary but still much nicer than the usual Windlass all leather ones.
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Post by curiomansion on Nov 3, 2023 6:27:02 GMT
nddave Which LK Chen Euros did you feel were too thin and flexible? From what I've read, their 1860 is very accurate. The Ribaldo was made in collaboration with Matt Easton and is supposedly accurate as well. The scant reviews on their rapiers report the same thing. Are you referring to their Balaur collabs? Yea the Italian and German Longswords have had reports of being overly flexible due to too much distal taper. The Rapier look nice but again look more like Jian with intricate hilts than actual Rapier. I'm definitely not complaining as they are all nice models especially their Alexandria sword. It's just a few nitpicks I'd like to see improved in future batches or models. They are definitely moving fast in the right direction as a new competitor offering mid-tier European Swords! I believe the Italian, German and Alexandria swords were designed and developed by Balaur (KoA) and made to specs developed by another smith. The ones they researched themselves seem to be much better.
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 3, 2023 14:26:37 GMT
Yea the Italian and German Longswords have had reports of being overly flexible due to too much distal taper. The Rapier look nice but again look more like Jian with intricate hilts than actual Rapier. I'm definitely not complaining as they are all nice models especially their Alexandria sword. It's just a few nitpicks I'd like to see improved in future batches or models. They are definitely moving fast in the right direction as a new competitor offering mid-tier European Swords! I believe the Italian, German and Alexandria swords were designed and developed by Balaur (KoA) and made to specs developed by another smith. The ones they researched themselves seem to be much better. Yeah, they were only slightly tweaked by LK Chen for manufacture reasonsas far as I know. (I think their smiths do stuff for other people as well.) EDIT:There is a video of LK himself testing 5 Balaurs and he says they were designed by KoA and contracted to them, so you are right.
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Post by eastman on Nov 4, 2023 5:09:35 GMT
I only have one of the RA Windlass swords, but it is not at the Albion or Valiant quality level. It is better than the Windlass "Sword of Robert the Bruce", but not to the construction quality of my squire line Albions.
Which do you have? I have the 15th century Longsword of Type XVII and found it quite comparable to or slightly above the two Squire Line swords I handle both the Viking and XIIa sword. What really impressed me with the fit and finish of the Type XVII was the blade geometry and transition point as well as the riccasso and its termination to the blade. Was also impressed with the peening and octagonal grip finish. Scabbard was kind of rudimentary but still much nicer than the usual Windlass all leather ones.
I have the Type XIV arming sword. It is a good sword, but I think some of the reviewers overhyped the products. It is probably the best sword from Windlass that I have handled, and it is not priced unreasonably for a sword with a scabbard included.
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