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Post by murman1983 on Aug 14, 2023 21:11:01 GMT
Hi all, After years of drooling, researching, asking questions, forgetting everything, researching again, I am ready to buy my first sword. I've decided to drop the cash and get an Albion. I have spoken to many of you under accounts that I no longer have access to (lost username and passwords) dating back to probably 2010 if I had to guess, on this forum, bladeforums, and reddit. I still feel like a noob even after all these years, and so I am here again. Its good to be back. I was wondering if anyone had any input on any of the blades below. Their types are all over the place, but I am equally interested in each one of them regardless of type. I have a compiled a list of some pros and cons of the swords I am considering, and made a to-scale picture comparing the sizes (within 1-2 % error, click attachment to enlarge), based off online descriptions, just for the fun of it.
Full disclosure: One mans pro is another mans con. I think every sword listed is awesome, and I am being very nit-picky. I assume all listed are great handlers, and so am not listing that as a pro, but a given. This thread is to help for decision making, but really, I just really like to hear peoples opinions/thoughts on swords.
Knight-pros: cut and thrust, sexy peen block and cross guard, I like wheel pommels for one handed swords
cons: fuller extending into cross guard leaves gap and bothers me Mercenary-pros: cut and thrust, I prefer this pommel shape (scent stopper) for 1.5-2 handed swords
cons: short blade length for 1.5 hander, (not sure about cross guard design, I think its growing on me, but not sure)
(also how is the blade thickness, is this a durable blade?, I think its roughly .25 inches) Crecy-pros: cut and thrust, long blade length
cons: I don't like the wheel pommel for 1.5-2 hand swords, fuller/cross guard gap nitpick
Principe-pros: cut and thrust, pommel shape, long blade length cons: blade is thin, worried about chipping (this is probably my least favorite for this very reason, I'm looking for durability above all) Ringeck-pros: thrust, pommel shape, long blade length, blade thickness and durability
cons: cut, maybe a little less wield-able than the others? Runner ups: Regent, Kingmaker, Burgundian would be highest on the list but were not considered due to the hollow grind, which I believe would effect durability. Note: The Arch Duke is included in pictures for comparison sake only.
Durability is probably the single most important factor when considering these swords, but I would love to hear your thoughts on the handling, tech, looks etc. Even if you don't own them.
Cheers
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Post by takitam on Aug 14, 2023 21:34:28 GMT
It's interesting to me that you still value 'durability' as the most important factor when choosing a sword. Especially since you have spent over 10 years reading forums and reviews. I'm on the opposite side, I value thin efficient edges over 'durability' because I believe that swords are cutting weapons I also value handling and how well a sword fits my hand. Not something you can ever check online. I also believe that you cannot really learn much from other people's opinions without personal experience. Therefore my advice for you is - buy one sword that you like the most. I know it's a hard choice but it is much better to start somewhere rather than stay thinking indefinitely. Once you have this personal experience, other people's opinions relative to your sword will start making sense. In the end, this sword may or may not be what you expected, but you should try asap. Then you can be happy or swap for another sword or sell and buy again. As to your specific points: - don't assume they are all 'great handlers'. They will all handle differently and you may like some and dislike others. For various reasons. - fuller extending into the cross guard and into the tang is normal - wheel pommels may surprise you, as they provide nice support for the left hand and you don't need to grip them. Holding a different type of pommel, especially when your hands are sweaty is not much fun. YMMV - Albion's hollow grind may actually be tougher than their other grinds when the blade is thick behind the cutting edge. This can be a bit random. - Ringeck (or Maximillian;) will be the 'most durable' according to your requirement, but I did not find it pleasant to handle. I have had several Albions (and some other swords) and handled many more. From this position, I might say that you have made some 'safe' choices, but Albion has more unique and interesting swords available imo. Let me repeat again - decide on the type of a sword you want the most and then pick the one you like the most, for now. Follow your gut instinct and not recommendations of others. It's as simple as that edit: Watch Matthew Jensen's videos if you haven't already. He reviewed most of your picks.
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Post by pellius on Aug 14, 2023 22:07:48 GMT
I like one-handers, myself. Also, I lean toward cut-n-thrust blades. Of the options here, the Knight appeals most to me. I have a couple of Albion type 19’s, and they are marvelous. I’ve never owned any of your picks, though, so I can’t offer much insight there.
I think any of them will be plenty durable unless you’re gonna chop wood or something (in which case none will be sufficiently durable).
I agree with just getting the one that looks best to you.
Good hunting!
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Post by fayebarca on Aug 14, 2023 22:14:48 GMT
Honestly, for my own part, I’d pick the Crecy out of these options listed. It’s one of the best handling, which in my experience ended up being a more important aspect than I had thought.
Something like the Principe is famed for its ability to cut well. And while it certainly does, but I’ve found it to be slow-feeling for swift follow-ups like double cuts. The Crecy still cuts well but moves in the hands a little better. I think the Regent might feel even slower, despite its thin-ish profile.
Many people complain about the grip on the Crecy being on the shorter end The way I see it, though, having your hands forced close together encourages better cutting form, i.e. better cutting results. It even being a wheel never bothered me much since I hold swords this way.
As for fullers going into the guards, it’s honestly highly unusual to see a sword where the central fuller *doesn’t* do that.
Anyway, that’s just my personal experience. Your mileage may vary — maybe you’re stronger such that handling doesn’t make that big a difference, or your hands may be so large that there’s genuinely not enough grip on the Crecy. I’m certainly not the strongest person in the world, and my hands aren’t exceptionally big.
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Post by madirish on Aug 14, 2023 23:58:35 GMT
I guess my question is....what are you going to do with this sword? What is the purpose? Will you be practicing test cutting regularly/seriously? If "yes", then you can probably eliminate all on the list in favor of the Principe or Crecy from general comments in the reviews. If "no", what is your concern about durability? At that point, the difference in build robustness is pretty much moot and fit and finish will be comparable on all...its a matter of what style you like best. I have a Crecy and a Merc....I have not yet cut with either, so can't make any claims. The Merc is a beautiful sword and feels great in the hand. I always preferred fullered swords, but in person I think it looks better than the Crecy. For what it is worth here are the two Weapon Dynamics Calculator graphs I made for each. I have to admit, I probably need to try the waggle test on the Crecy again, I struggled with it.
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Post by leviathansteak on Aug 15, 2023 0:20:58 GMT
Out of the swords you mentioned, i have a crecy and ringeck.
The ringeck, with its thick spine would arguably be one of the most durable options. I find the handling to be nice and maneuverable, with the scent stopper pommel providing more gripping options. The ringeck, while obviously a thruster, still performs well on most cutting media at the COP.
The crecy has a more versatile cut and thrust blade, and handles nicely even in one hand. The grip is slightly constraining, but i don't find it too short. Also, if you choose to hold the wheel pommel, there will be plenty of space.
If i could only keep one, it would have to be the crecy as i feel that it's a "classic" configuration for a longsword that looks appropriate for a wider range of time periods than the ringeck
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Post by toddstratton1 on Aug 15, 2023 0:33:57 GMT
I have a Crecy for sale with scabbard. If you want a sword for cutting its the better option over the Mercenary, but alternatively there are other models that are also good for cutting. The Mercenary just isn't that great compared to the thrust centric designed it has. You get used to the wheel pommel too. The Principe has the best cutting factor but it is a lot less durable. Fine if you don't cut hard targets and stick to bamboo mats, water bottles , and pool noodles. If you want to do any cutting at all I'd avoid the ringneck. As that one really isn't that well fit for it. There are other albions that are also fantastic cutters but of the ones you mentioned the Princepe and the Crecy are the best choices. The crecy being more durable of the two but any sword will take damage if you abuse it too hard.
Oh just saw that you listed the Knight as well, an excellent cutter and a lot of peoples favorite handling one hander sword. There is a friend of mine who has one for sale with a scabbard too. Its a lot different to compare to a long sword though. Apples to oranges in a way. However it certainly would serve you well. Again though durability on any albion won't be an issue provided you take care of it properly and don't cut anything a sword is NOT meant to cut. I.e. tree branches, hard wood, etc. Stick to softer cutting materials that are not abrasive.
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Post by murman1983 on Aug 15, 2023 2:31:18 GMT
takitamThanks so much for the long and thoughtful reply. It's very helpful, and I appreciate that you gave me counter points to some of the cons on the list. I'm kind of a dooms day prepper, so that why durability is so high up. You know SHTF scenario, you want something beefy. That is not why I want a sword though. I love the history, and impact of swords. That is why Im going Albion, not.....BudK zombie machette. LOL. You are right. Ive waited 10 years being indecisive, (and waiting on funds) so I am going to take your advice and not wait much longer, and just get one. Invaluable info, I'll no doubt read several times. Thanks You say there are more interesting swords available. I wonder if you would kindly elaborate a little?
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Post by murman1983 on Aug 15, 2023 2:37:22 GMT
pellius
Thanks for the insight. The Knight was the first sword that I ever saw and fell in love with. There is just something about it that everyone including my self loves. I'm not sure what it is. I am really starting to dig on the Mercenary because it still retains alot of the perks of a one hand sword, while being a hand and a half. Thanks again!
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Post by murman1983 on Aug 15, 2023 2:52:37 GMT
fayebarca
This is exactly what i was looking for. Comparisons between swords, thanks. Interesting take on the smaller grip improving form. I am relatively large at 220lb, 6'2", so this is something I have to consider when picking a sword. I also think the fuller thing bothers me too much. I never had an issue with it, until I noticed the large gap it leaves between the cross guard. But really its not a big deal, and will probably start disregarding it as deciding factor. Thanks
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Post by murman1983 on Aug 15, 2023 3:13:10 GMT
madirish I will mainly be displaying the swords, holding it, caressing it, kissinktwjrnvkjg cough cough sorry I was getting carried away. Anyways, no really. Mainly displaying, looking up the history, and very occasionally cutting. I value durability, because I want this sword to out last me. Accidents happen and on a long enough time frame things can get messed up. A tough edge is important to me, because I would hate to chip one of these swords. I saw Skallagrim chip the Principe, and that really steered what I was looking for in a blade. You say build robustness is a moot point, but surely the blade thickness effecting durability between a Ringeck, and Principe would be notable, no? Really, I don't know. One is wider, one is thicker. Strong in different directions? But what is more important is edge thickness? Again,I have a lot to learn. Thanks for the insight, now I am going to go study those charts you posted.
ps. Are you an engineer?
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Post by murman1983 on Aug 15, 2023 3:19:29 GMT
leviathansteak
Again, exactly what i was looking, the hard decisive choices. Thanks. I am a large and relatively strong man. (I need to get back in the gym tho, aging sucks) Would you say that the Ringeck could be wielded comfortably one handed for a 220lb, 6'2" man? Thanks
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Post by murman1983 on Aug 15, 2023 3:30:02 GMT
toddstratton1 Thanks for the heads up on what materials to avoid cutting. I have been really looking forward to building my owns scabbard, and have just finished a sheath. But would still be interested in looking at you or your friends sword, provided they are already posted online and would be of no inconvenience to you. Thanks for you insight, and personal experience.
edit: I had actually already looked at your Crecy, and wow. That is a very beautiful scabbard, and I am sure surpasses my leather crafting ability.
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Post by takitam on Aug 15, 2023 3:41:58 GMT
takitam Thanks so much for the long and thoughtful reply. It's very helpful, and I appreciate that you gave me counter points to some of the cons on the list. I'm kind of a dooms day prepper, so that why durability is so high up. You know SHTF scenario, you want something beefy. That is not why I want a sword though. I love the history, and impact of swords. That is why Im going Albion, not.....BudK zombie machette. LOL. You are right. Ive waited 10 years being indecisive, (and waiting on funds) so I am going to take your advice and not wait much longer, and just get one. Invaluable info, I'll no doubt read several times. Thanks You say there are more interesting swords available. I wonder if you would kindly elaborate a little? I'm going to briefly cover a few points. Let's start with 'durability'. You mention Skallagrim's video. He made a very bad cut on that branch. What happened was that the edge got stuck in the wood a little bit and afterwards, the whole power of his strike twisted the sword in his hand and got transferred into that part of the edge that was in the branch. That was a lot of force on a very small area and explains the deformation. Then he paid the price for his first mistake on the zombie skull. And a story was born... I have cut with Alexandria and my impression is that this is a sword that kills in one strike. Most swords could do that in trained hands against an unarmed opponent, but this could do it more than others And I wouldn't be afraid of its durability in any SHTF fighting context. Would Ringeck fail in the same way as Skallagrim's Principe in the same situation? 99% no but you pay the price for it with comparably weak cutting power. Now. let's use some imagination. It's probably easier to kill with a thrust than a cut but if you make a powerful thrust, your sword may get stuck in the target. With a cutting sword, you can keep going, strike after strike. It's up to you to decide what your 'hero vision' is I had the Caithness and I considered it to be a non-finesse sword. A solid and well balanced weapon but without a 'spark'. I imagine I would have the same opinion of the Knight. It doesn't help that I don't like it visually. If you want a durable sword, another one I would recommend is the Landgraf/Sempach. I have not handled either but would prefer one over the Crecy. I would personally choose the Landgraf, but it's because I know that I like the the 'interface' a wheel pommel provides. For one handers that I consider finesse weapons, my favourites are the Vigil and Chevalier. They both surprise you with their handling as they combine seemingly contradictory traits, like forward heavy power and nimbleness/speed. These are the only two one handers from Albion that I handled that gave me this feeling. I also appreciate historical inspirations that brought these swords to life. You could also choose something more unique. Thegn is a very quick sword, but short and definitely not as durable as others. You might want to go for extended reach, why not pick the Gaddhjalt then. Something I have not handled but might suit your imagination - Saint Maurice sword. It's supposed to be tough and extremely powerful but hard to wield. Imagine a fully armored mounted knight smiting his enemies from above. Choosing a one hander leaves you the option of having a shield in your left hand. It is probably a better idea than a longsowrd for a zombie apocalypse Last but not least, you could combine a sword with a spear, a longsword with a great sword and choose the very unique Dane. I'm sure it's a very durable beast as well. And one more - the Longseax is a bar of steel, very different from most swords, but if you just want to smash things, it could be (along with maybe the Cherusker) an interesting choice. Some food for thought edit: btw there were some threads about cutting recently. If you look at my post history (I don't have that many of them;) you will find some observations about cutting cloth from several forum members. This should provide some extra context to think about.
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Post by curiomansion on Aug 15, 2023 8:26:55 GMT
I second takitam that the most durable swords in Albion's Next Gen lineup will be the XViis (Landgraf/Sempach). I've handled the Sempach and it handles well- though, I'm curious about the opinion that the Ringeck is a "bad handler." The Ringeck I handled was the quickest longsword I handled from Albion's lineup and feels very much like a feder- easily handled in one hand with finesse and accuracy. So maybe I have a different opinion on handling. Durability concerns with the Principe are 100% warranted. One look at the edge should tell you that. That's not a bad thing, if you adjust its usage accordingly. It'll be a soft target and fabric killer, but probably wouldn't last more than a handful of sword fights. Clearly not a blade designed for extended blade on blade action. Wonderful, majestic sword, though. If you're a big dude, looking for a SHTF sword, the Baron is criminally underrated on the forums (I have a Squire Line 13th Century Great Sword MKI with the same blade). It's going to be decently durable and still a massively powerful cutter. Decent thruster. Many cases of the hollow ground Albions not handling bone very well. The edge seems to be not durable, but the sword certainly is because of the spine. I like to think of it as a durable sword with a nice sharp, but delicate edge. After hard use and reprofiling, the hollow XViiis slowly become XVs anyway, so why not? As a wallhanger, the Principe or the Kingmaker appeal to me most of the swords you listed.
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Post by leviathansteak on Aug 15, 2023 8:36:37 GMT
leviathansteak Again, exactly what i was looking, the hard decisive choices. Thanks. I am a large and relatively strong man. (I need to get back in the gym tho, aging sucks) Would you say that the Ringeck could be wielded comfortably one handed for a 220lb, 6'2" man? Thanks I am smaller than you, but can reasonably wield the ringeck one handed, though with less effectiveness But yes some of my larger sized hema club members have cut with my ringeck one handed and perform really well. I don't think you'll have an issue using it in one hand
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Post by toddstratton1 on Aug 15, 2023 11:49:41 GMT
leviathansteak Again, exactly what i was looking, the hard decisive choices. Thanks. I am a large and relatively strong man. (I need to get back in the gym tho, aging sucks) Would you say that the Ringeck could be wielded comfortably one handed for a 220lb, 6'2" man? Thanks If you're more focused on using a sword one handed stick with an arming sword. As long swords really are more of a two handed sword that can occasionally be used in one hand when you need the off hand to do grappling or etc. But you won't really be cutting with them like that, at least not often or for much reason. If you want more leverage and added versatility and the option to sparingly cut one handed, if you want. A longsword is great. Your weight doesn't impact much in terms of the sword, nor height too much. I mean you're bigger and stronger than average so you can presumably use a larger and heftier sword without issue. But the only thing that can get in the way with some sword grips is how big your hands themselves are. I have very large hands. I'm 6'1 but with a 6'6 wingspan. But even the Crecy feels okay for me. But it is not something I can swing around very well without gripping part of the pommel, which I can do with the very long grip of my XVIA Angus Trim swords. Because he designs those differently. Most historical reproductions the grip length is usually on the shorter side, as an average. That's why some people prefer scent stopper type pommel because it is a similar feel for the grip/makes the handle feel longer whereas the wheel pommel feels like a change into a more noticeably different shape in the hands. Someone mentioned the Baron already and that is another great option. Cuts as well as a principe but the blade is heftier in thickness and thus more durable, in a war time scenario. And since you are a larger stronger presumably person it would be more manageable for you to handle. Personally I find it quite different than the handling on most my other longswords though, and if I was to only have one I'd prefer something a bit more maneuverable, without the added weight and mass that makes redirecting the blade quickly after a cut more difficult. Just by means of physics itself. Still a bad ass sword though. Just don't expect to do any lightning fast multi cuts with it like some others can do with more grace. It can certainly cleave through most things like s monster though.
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Post by tomtx on Aug 15, 2023 12:11:57 GMT
Personally I like concave disc pommels a lot for both one and two hand swords. The little finger of the rear (or only) hand locks into the concave part of the disc (with the raised part of the disc acting as a hand stop) and really gives you a good grip (and an extra finger worth of grip). Very comfortable and secure grip. I also prefer shorter grips (in both one-hand and 2-hand swords). The Crecy IS nice, and I would pick it over the Ringeck if I had to choose, but I would also consider adding the Sempach to your list. It's my favorite Albion hand-and-a-half sword... Sort of the evolution of the Crecy into a more anti-armor weapon (but that can still cut). Blade definitely meets your durability criteria with the strong hexagonal cross section and spike tip, and does not have a wheel pommel... And it's just beautiful. The details on the pommel, the swooping guard, the sleek blade profile and design. When I look at it, I always think an Elf in the Lord of the Rings would have used this sword. It does have a fuller that goes into the tang (as was normal with real medieval swords). Nice, tight, comfortable grip (though you do have the pommel if you want to move your rear hand back). Light enough for one-hand use (and half-swording), and pretty agile. If I was only going to keep one Albion hand-and-a-half sword, it would be the Sempach. (For single hand, it would be Burgundian or Kingmaker, but lots of concerns raised about the edge durability... I don't know). For the 'zombie apocalypse' scenario I would actually pick a non-Albion-- the Valiant Armory Vision Milan (reinforced hexagonal cross section, single-hand, small, light, agile). The different designs are really interesting to me. They handle differently, are balanced differently, have different strengths and weaknesses, different blade geometries and cross-sections and mass distributions, were made in different times to solve different problems. So I wouldn't worry about trying to find the 'perfect' sword, because perfect for what? When you realize there are a lot of 'whats' (full plate armor? mail? unarmored? battlefield? civilian duel?) and contexts, then you really start wanting a collection rather than just a 'perfect' sword. Or I do, anyway. I want to understand what the swords can teach me about how they were designed to be used, and the way they were used in their time period. What it can tell me about how a Norman fought in 1050, a Crusader in 1150, a knight in the Hundred Years War, etc. I'm not looking for a sword that is designed in modern times to best slice through tatami mat or water bottles or whatever... I want swords that are true to the originals (if not exactly, then at least in design and function) so I can learn from them. Albions are a safe choice because they are well-researched and designed, and usually well-made. When you get your hands on one, even if it doesn't feel great to you, try to understand what it can teach you. Because it is based on good examples of real swords that actually existed and actually were used as life-or-death tools. Also, if you keep an open mind you might find that you like something that you never thought you would. I had no interest in type XIV until I tried some... Now I love them. About edge geometry, swords meant for going up against plate in later times will have the most reinforced edges (hexagonal cross-section being pretty much the ultimate in that direction as far as swords that can still actually cut). A blade from an earlier period, on the other hand, might seem almost delicate, because it was meant for mostly unarmored fighting. And of course on a later period battlefield there would be everything from heavily armored opponents to unarmored, so maybe you want a versatile blade that can handle a range of types of targets rather than a specialized sword. And climate (heat) plays a role in what armor was used, and so what swords were used in that area. That's what gives us such variety and makes it so interesting-- the tradeoffs and compromises that were made. Another option-- Albion also has a new hexagonal blade longsword, the Sankt Annen:
It is more of a wide XIIIa type blade (as opposed to the narrow, acutely tapered XVII Sempach), and heavier than the Sempach, but might suit your size better (?). But both have hexagonal cross sections with reinforced edges. This one is not on Albion's site yet, but you can order it if you talk to Albion. I have heard no first-hand reports about it yet, but I can tell you how it is in a year or so :) Wait time with Albions right now is about 20 months... keep an eye on the forum classified section.
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Post by madirish on Aug 15, 2023 14:34:41 GMT
madirish I will mainly be displaying the swords, holding it, caressing it, kissinktwjrnvkjg cough cough sorry I was getting carried away. Anyways, no really. Mainly displaying, looking up the history, and very occasionally cutting. I value durability, because I want this sword to out last me. Accidents happen and on a long enough time frame things can get messed up. A tough edge is important to me, because I would hate to chip one of these swords. I saw Skallagrim chip the Principe, and that really steered what I was looking for in a blade. You say build robustness is a moot point, but surely the blade thickness effecting durability between a Ringeck, and Principe would be notable, no? Really, I don't know. One is wider, one is thicker. Strong in different directions? But what is more important is edge thickness? Again,I have a lot to learn. Thanks for the insight, now I am going to go study those charts you posted.
ps. Are you an engineer?
I said differences in robustness of build between these models is a moot point if you are not doing test cutting (ie, it is for display/costume). In that case, any of these swords will outlast you....a Deepeeka would outlast you in that case (well, mebbe the leather would fall off or something). If you are going for cutting, that's a horse of a different color....of the models you've chosen, Crecy, I should think. Don't worry, you aren't getting carried away...even if you said you wanted to take long walks with it on the beach, I would certainly understand (just make sure it is well oiled in that salt air, lol) I am an engineer....but that chart has nothing to do with me....It is a standardized way to document the properties and dynamic characteristics of swords. see: blog.subcaelo.net/ensis/documenting-dynamics-of-swords/
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Post by eastman on Aug 15, 2023 18:00:13 GMT
Since you've been thinking about this for 10 years, and Albion's lead time on orders is about 20 months here's what you need to do -
Contact Mike Sigman at Albion and schedule an appointment at the showroom (Mon-Thurs), then drive to New Glarus WI and go in and handle a bunch of swords. The ones in the showroom aren't for sale (so your credit card can stop panicking) but you will have the chance to try the feel of them. Order the one(s) you love the most.
Afterwards there is a really good brewery and options for Swiss or Swiss-German food in the New Glarus area.
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