pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 15, 2023 12:58:37 GMT
I am just saying that rapiers do take more skill than medieval european two-handed longswords. Do you agree with me? I agree that you are comparing a battle field weapon with some use reaching from 12th to 17th century but mostly popular 1350-1550, to a essentially a civilian weapon used during the 16th and 17th century. Each designed for a different purpose at a different time. And you are trying to bring this 3 dimensional frame work into the present with 2 dimensions. I think most people don’t care about the skill level required except to make a game of it. |
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 15, 2023 14:53:12 GMT
Sorry if I came off as aggressive but this is really just my personal beliefs regarding two-longswords versus rapiers when it came to effectiveness and skill? Anyways, do you agree with me regarding two-handed longswords versus rapiers when it comes to skill and effectiveness? NO How many years have you been sword fighting Mr Death? What real world experience do you bring to this conversation other than outrageous statements? If you have proof, PROVE IT. In my opinion, you are so laughably incorrect I am humbled. However, everyone on this board has been wrong at times, we teach each other. So show us proof, and prove us wrong. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 15, 2023 15:11:37 GMT
I'd say a clearly inferior weapon needs more skills of the fighter to win against an opponent with a better weapon.
A duel between a man with a dagger and a man with a pistol f.e.
So I think a rapier fighter needs more skills to fight a longsword fighter successfully.
That doesn't mean the man with the better weapon needs no skills.
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Post by howler on Feb 15, 2023 18:54:57 GMT
The art of using a Katana were honed for over thousand years with it's core design being relatively unchanged while euros were constantly scrapping their swords every few decades because they were so inferior and couldn't survive the stress of battle and advent of new technology. Meanwhile the Katana perfected to the point it found use and dominated battlefields well into the 20th century, the West was so desperate they had to develop the Atomic Bomb to finally get an edge and force Japan to disarm completely. Euros were constantly "scrapping" (changing, modifying, altering) their weapon designs (either quickly or by slow increments) over the centuries due to being a vast continent in touch with other cultures borrowing, invading, influencing each other. A "crucible of death", so to speak. What this ultimately did was use the superior steel content in an evolution of weaponry. But certain swords from isolated lands can cut the barrels off tanks, or so I've been told.  |
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Post by howler on Feb 15, 2023 19:04:24 GMT
I think that if we are talking about (non armored) battlefield utility, any single hand sword (preferably with some hand protection) is the way to go because you have the free hand for a shield (or pistol if included). One on one open field unarmed duel has single hand sword (say saber, for instance) with shield pitted against spear/polearm with rapier & offhand/small shield, long sword, katana in (my opinion) descending order.
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Post by kaotikross on Feb 15, 2023 19:11:17 GMT
Somebody should play the game Hellish Quart
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 15, 2023 19:43:28 GMT
What do you think we're doing here?  |
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Post by death447 on Feb 15, 2023 21:16:28 GMT
I think you are just saying that rapiers take more skill than the Japanese katana which is true. My comment was just what you said but changed slightly to show how stupid of a statement it was. Life isn't a video game, there are too many variables to say definitively that one weapon is better than others. Also rapiers, while extremely annoying to fight, have some big drawbacks(blade is almost too flexible and thin, so larger bladed swords would be incredibly difficult to parry/riposte, if not impossible). Rapiers are made to fight other rapiers Still, the rapier takes more skill than the medieval two-handed european longsword. Do you agree with me? |
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Post by death447 on Feb 15, 2023 21:18:58 GMT
Seriously, katana are superior to rapiers. Katana require so much more skill than rapier, and are overall just easier to use. I am so confident in this that I bet a 10 year old samurai without armor could easily beat the best rapier duellist in history without breaking a sweat. What will the rapier duellist do if the samurai throws his shoto at him? The flimsy blade is not capable of deflecting the thrown weapon. If the rapier is so good, why didn't Japan adopt it? They were capable of making it, so it must be that it is just flat out worse than the katana www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/13068309Katana man NEEDS that armor or he's a pin cushion with that up to 4' rapier tip (up to 3lb weight...not flimsy), particularly with off hand shield/dagger. Blinding speed with Reach advantage and straight line lunge just can't be underestimated. Only spear/polearms or one hand sword with large shield beat or equal Rapier. I got Katana #5, with spear/polearm, one hand sword & shield, rapier, long sword ahead. You are so true regarding this statement of yours. Rapiers are just superior to katanas and medieval two-handed european longswords when it comes to effectiveness and the amount of skills needed to master. |
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Post by death447 on Feb 15, 2023 21:22:58 GMT
How many years have you been sword fighting Mr Death? What real world experience do you bring to this conversation other than outrageous statements? If you have proof, PROVE IT. In my opinion, you are so laughably incorrect I am humbled. However, everyone on this board has been wrong at times, we teach each other. So show us proof, and prove us wrong. Well show me proof that rapiers are not superior to two-handed longswords when it comes to effectiveness and the amount of skills needed to master. |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Feb 15, 2023 23:42:01 GMT
My comment was just what you said but changed slightly to show how stupid of a statement it was. Life isn't a video game, there are too many variables to say definitively that one weapon is better than others. Also rapiers, while extremely annoying to fight, have some big drawbacks(blade is almost too flexible and thin, so larger bladed swords would be incredibly difficult to parry/riposte, if not impossible). Rapiers are made to fight other rapiers Still, the rapier takes more skill than the medieval two-handed european longsword. Do you agree with me? no |
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Post by howler on Feb 16, 2023 1:30:20 GMT
Katana man NEEDS that armor or he's a pin cushion with that up to 4' rapier tip (up to 3lb weight...not flimsy), particularly with off hand shield/dagger. Blinding speed with Reach advantage and straight line lunge just can't be underestimated. Only spear/polearms or one hand sword with large shield beat or equal Rapier. I got Katana #5, with spear/polearm, one hand sword & shield, rapier, long sword ahead. You are so true regarding this statement of yours. Rapiers are just superior to katanas and medieval two-handed european longswords when it comes to effectiveness and the amount of skills needed to master. I was specific about effectiveness in one on one unarmored duels (and to a lesser degree utility on the battlefield). Compare/contrast the amount of skills needed to master each weapon, I don't know, but I do know the long sword is underestimated. I think that part of this is old movies (heavy "smash & bash" and wielded like a long bladed axe), misunderstanding museum pieces (many overbuilt ceremonial status symbols), and this was nothing of the sort. Men did engage in and were trained in unarmored combat, including one on one duels, and we are still learning (and unlearning the false history stereotypes) just how elegant and deadly these versatile weapons were. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Feb 16, 2023 6:48:23 GMT
How many years have you been sword fighting Mr Death? What real world experience do you bring to this conversation other than outrageous statements? If you have proof, PROVE IT. In my opinion, you are so laughably incorrect I am humbled. However, everyone on this board has been wrong at times, we teach each other. So show us proof, and prove us wrong. Well show me proof that rapiers are not superior to two-handed longswords when it comes to effectiveness and the amount of skills needed to master. "Positive claims require positive proof". As you created the thread asserting an opinion that is not objectively true, and still much debated here, the onus is on you to back your claim. I cannot simply say, "The moon is made of cheese" and claim the onus is on anyone else to prove me wrong. (TL;DR, Hitchens's razor) |
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 16, 2023 22:16:34 GMT
Well show me proof that rapiers are not superior to two-handed longswords when it comes to effectiveness and the amount of skills needed to master. "Positive claims require positive proof". As you created the thread asserting an opinion that is not objectively true, and still much debated here, the onus is on you to back your claim. I cannot simply say, "The moon is made of cheese" and claim the onus is on anyone else to prove me wrong. (TL;DR, Hitchens's razor) What he said. Also... Prove you're not TROLLING, which, I might remind you, is against the rules. |
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Feb 16, 2023 23:13:10 GMT
I picked that up last night and sent out an alert. The mods are watching. Sorry if I came off as aggressive but this is really just my personal beliefs regarding two-longswords versus rapiers when it came to effectiveness and skill? Anyways, do you agree with me regarding two-handed longswords versus rapiers when it comes to skill and effectiveness? yes, maybe and no. horseback: would give the edge to a knight w/ longsword. medieval battlefield...um I'd want armor if no projectiles involved and would take armor w/ longsword/ over unarmored and rapier cqb: tavern/alleyway: probably depends on the skill/experience. group fight: 10 knights vs 10 fencers? I dont see a clear answer to this...but would like your opinion on these situations death447 |
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Post by death447 on Feb 17, 2023 2:14:34 GMT
Still, the rapier takes more skill than the medieval two-handed european longsword. Do you agree with me? no Why do you think so? |
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Post by howler on Feb 17, 2023 2:23:23 GMT
Ya kinda let the cat out of the trolling bag by saying, along with all the other stuff, that a rapier wielder would defeat a FULLY ARMORED knight. It was the FULLY ARMORED (meaning INVULNERABLE) part that you still haven't even begun to explain or acknowledge. Like a knight on horseback with lance in a frontal charge destroying a King Tiger tank during WW2. |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Feb 17, 2023 3:43:03 GMT
Because I know 100% that you have never studied either of them, and you started this thread just to start an argument. |
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eastman
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Post by eastman on Feb 17, 2023 3:58:38 GMT
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Post by legacyofthesword on Feb 17, 2023 4:15:14 GMT
There's several things to consider. Most importantly, penetration: obviously the rapier is phenomenal at penetration, and is quite long (always a positive thing). However, while some rapiers can be quite stiff, others are too flexible and floppy for proper thrusting, which can lead to embarrassing situations. A flaccid sword is a sad thing indeed. The longsword is usually thicker than a rapier - some are quite girthy - and this can help make your weapon much stiffer, which obviously helps enormously when you're trying to stick your sword deep into someone's body. That said, there are some longswords that suffer from a lack of rigidity, to their owner's great shame.
All that said, it's not always about what kind of weapon you have, it's how you use it.
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Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
Nov 1, 2024 0:13:58 GMT
