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Post by death447 on Feb 13, 2023 18:29:04 GMT
All easy I think. Just some swashbuckling. Welcome to the forum, death447! Spectacular entrance! Thanks! |
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Post by death447 on Feb 13, 2023 18:37:46 GMT
Odds of victory for the knight go to virtually 100% if armored knight is even remotely as skilled as the Rapier wielder. Are you saying that the odds against the knight will be extremely high to the point that he will lose to the rapier fencer? Yes, I believe you. A battle-hardened war-experienced two-handed-longsword wielding fully-armored 37-year old knight has no chance of winning in a fight-to-the-death against a 16-year old beginner male rapier fencer who never went to war or the battlefield.
Rapiers are really just highly effective weapons against a two-handed longsword. Rapiers also take a lot of skill and finesse while two-handed longswords don't.
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Post by howler on Feb 13, 2023 18:45:25 GMT
Dear Death (had to start with that because it sound hilarious), rapier were popular for hundreds of years and come in many different flavors, from dueling specific to more battlefield and cutting friendly. In (non armored) duels, super deadly, particularly with offhand dagger or small shield, but there are better battlefield blades, for various reasons. It was, mainly, the pitting of beginner 17yr olds with rapier against FULLY ARMORED  knights that put you on that motorbike with 'The Fonz' and jumping that toothy fish.
Edit: Typed above post before Death responded to me, Yikes, I'm talking to either a Troll, Fonzy, or Henry Winkler dressed up as a Troll with a rapier. Just for laughs, the rapier would need a light saber type energy cutting blade to pierce that full plate knightly armor. Non armored duel can certainly be another story, particularly if rapier wielder has an off hand dagger or shield.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 13, 2023 20:00:01 GMT
I picked that up last night and sent out an alert. That mods are watching. Sorry if I came off as aggressive but this is really just my personal beliefs regarding two-longswords versus rapiers when it came to effectiveness and skill? Anyways, do you agree with me regarding two-handed longswords versus rapiers when it comes to skill and effectiveness? There are so many variables with both the argument could go on indefinitely. Probably the best answer is to each his own. At any rate, welcome to the forum. |
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 14, 2023 0:35:04 GMT
Wow, this looks like something one of our banned members would post just to cause trouble. Sorry if I came off as aggressive but this is really just my personal beliefs regarding two-longswords versus rapiers when it came to effectiveness and skill? Anyways, do you agree with me regarding two-handed longswords versus rapiers when it comes to skill and effectiveness? NO |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 14, 2023 4:12:56 GMT
If you're saying that rapiers only work in a duel versus another rapier then why did rapiers replace longswords? Rapiers along with sabres replaced two-handed longswords.
Also, rapiers are not useless in the battlefield. The Knights Hospitallers during the Siege of Malta destroyed the legendary Ottoman Janissaries in hand to hand combat by wielding rapiers.
Even if rapiers are indeed weak against two-handed longswords, I can still say that rapiers do take more skill than two-handed longswords. Do you agree with me?
With guns armor became less useful and it was cheaper to have masses of landsknechts with no armor or just a breastplate. In this situation rapiers and sideswords and the fighting style for long single handed thrusting swords became more useful. Also in towns running around without armor. Two hundred years later smallswords replaced rapiers, so following your logic smallswords are much better weapons than rapiers. I'm not a hema master but afaik longswords in duel need more skills than rapiers in duel, perhaps this was one of the reasons rapiers became common. I don't know what kinds of swords were used in Malta but in war many soldiers used sideswords/reitschwerter similar to rapiers but capable of cutting too. Edit: Hah! www.historicalfencingmalta.org/papers/arms-and-armour-of-the-order/Longswords an sideswords. Very specialized swords make more sense in a controlled predictable situation like a duel with an opponent with the same weapon. For unpredictable situations without control you'd want a more versatile weapon. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 14, 2023 12:10:26 GMT
Death, you have repeatedly said that the rapier requires more skill. With that premise are you saying the more skill required the better the weapon?
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Feb 14, 2023 12:47:19 GMT
Welcome O Death (do pass me over for another year),
Superior to both: a messer.
Might not be superior in some peoples opinions but they can be Grosse...
Or
"nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Feb 14, 2023 21:27:25 GMT
Seriously, katana are superior to rapiers. Katana require so much more skill than rapier, and are overall just easier to use. I am so confident in this that I bet a 10 year old samurai without armor could easily beat the best rapier duellist in history without breaking a sweat. What will the rapier duellist do if the samurai throws his shoto at him? The flimsy blade is not capable of deflecting the thrown weapon. If the rapier is so good, why didn't Japan adopt it? They were capable of making it, so it must be that it is just flat out worse than the katana www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/13068309 |
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Post by howler on Feb 14, 2023 22:11:27 GMT
Seriously, katana are superior to rapiers. Katana require so much more skill than rapier, and are overall just easier to use. I am so confident in this that I bet a 10 year old samurai without armor could easily beat the best rapier duellist in history without breaking a sweat. What will the rapier duellist do if the samurai throws his shoto at him? The flimsy blade is not capable of deflecting the thrown weapon. If the rapier is so good, why didn't Japan adopt it? They were capable of making it, so it must be that it is just flat out worse than the katana www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/13068309Katana man NEEDS that armor or he's a pin cushion with that up to 4' rapier tip (up to 3lb weight...not flimsy), particularly with off hand shield/dagger. Blinding speed with Reach advantage and straight line lunge just can't be underestimated. Only spear/polearms or one hand sword with large shield beat or equal Rapier. I got Katana #5, with spear/polearm, one hand sword & shield, rapier, long sword ahead. |
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Post by Arlequin on Feb 14, 2023 23:30:00 GMT
The art of using a Katana were honed for over thousand years with it's core design being relatively unchanged while euros were constantly scrapping their swords every few decades because they were so inferior and couldn't survive the stress of battle and advent of new technology. Meanwhile the Katana perfected to the point it found use and dominated battlefields well into the 20th century, the West was so desperate they had to develop the Atomic Bomb to finally get an edge and force Japan to disarm completely.
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Feb 14, 2023 23:37:17 GMT
The art of using a Katana were honed for over thousand years with it's core design being relatively unchanged while euros were constantly scrapping their swords every few decades because they were so inferior and couldn't survive the stress of battle and advent of new technology. Meanwhile the Katana perfected to the point it found use and dominated battlefields well into the 20th century, the West was so desperate they had to develop the Atomic Bomb to finally get an edge and force Japan to disarm completely. lmao true |
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Post by larason2 on Feb 15, 2023 1:59:09 GMT
This is actually quite true. A katana can pierce better than a rapier because it's stiffer and tougher, and cut like a broadsword, and even cut off heads and arms. It's better than a double edge blade because it's lighter, yet cuts just as well as one. Stored with the edge up it stays sharper. Any longer and it would be unwieldly, any shorter and it wouldn't have enough reach. It can be used one handed or two handed with equal effectiveness. Its furniture is modular and easily replaceable. It functions better at close quarters than a straight bade of the same length because of the curve. It really is the best balance of all possible sword designs, and that's why it is now the most popular sword design even in the west.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 15, 2023 2:22:04 GMT
In the OP it is rapier vs longsword. So far katanas, messers, broad swords, full armour, landsknechts, and small swords have been mentioned. Let’s keep this on track.
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Post by death447 on Feb 15, 2023 5:14:12 GMT
Sorry if I came off as aggressive but this is really just my personal beliefs regarding two-longswords versus rapiers when it came to effectiveness and skill? Anyways, do you agree with me regarding two-handed longswords versus rapiers when it comes to skill and effectiveness? NO Why? Please explain. |
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Post by death447 on Feb 15, 2023 5:17:25 GMT
Death, you have repeatedly said that the rapier requires more skill. With that premise are you saying the more skill required the better the weapon? I am just saying that rapiers do take more skill than medieval european two-handed longswords. Do you agree with me? |
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Post by death447 on Feb 15, 2023 5:20:15 GMT
Seriously, katana are superior to rapiers. Katana require so much more skill than rapier, and are overall just easier to use. I am so confident in this that I bet a 10 year old samurai without armor could easily beat the best rapier duellist in history without breaking a sweat. What will the rapier duellist do if the samurai throws his shoto at him? The flimsy blade is not capable of deflecting the thrown weapon. If the rapier is so good, why didn't Japan adopt it? They were capable of making it, so it must be that it is just flat out worse than the katana www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/13068309I think you are just saying that rapiers take more skill than the Japanese katana which is true. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Feb 15, 2023 5:25:53 GMT
In the OP it is rapier vs longsword. So far katanas, messers, broad swords, full armour, landsknechts, and small swords have been mentioned. Let’s keep this on track. Just pointing out that pgandy is a moderator, and it is the custom of this forum for moderators to use blue text when speaking in an official capacity. I agree with pgandy and suggest we not derail the thread from the original rapier vs. longsword scope. New threads can be created if anyone feels tangental discussions can be civil and fruitful. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 15, 2023 6:09:55 GMT
Most skills of a (successfull!) swordfigher don't fokus on the swordtype: timing, experience, reading your opponent, speed, strength, stamina. It's like 95 % fighting skills and the question if the sword needs 4 or 5 % special skill. Katana perhaps 7 %  |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Feb 15, 2023 7:05:36 GMT
Seriously, katana are superior to rapiers. Katana require so much more skill than rapier, and are overall just easier to use. I am so confident in this that I bet a 10 year old samurai without armor could easily beat the best rapier duellist in history without breaking a sweat. What will the rapier duellist do if the samurai throws his shoto at him? The flimsy blade is not capable of deflecting the thrown weapon. If the rapier is so good, why didn't Japan adopt it? They were capable of making it, so it must be that it is just flat out worse than the katana www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/13068309I think you are just saying that rapiers take more skill than the Japanese katana which is true. My comment was just what you said but changed slightly to show how stupid of a statement it was. Life isn't a video game, there are too many variables to say definitively that one weapon is better than others. Also rapiers, while extremely annoying to fight, have some big drawbacks(blade is almost too flexible and thin, so larger bladed swords would be incredibly difficult to parry/riposte, if not impossible). Rapiers are made to fight other rapiers |
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knights that put you on that motorbike with 'The Fonz' and jumping that toothy fish.
