Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2008 2:40:35 GMT
I thought I would list and classify the main shields types. The significant characteristic that defines them is how you block with them and how much help you need from your sword to block. There is no hard rule as to their exact size and their characteristics can be somewhat mixed. 1-Heater-(24"x36") shield 100% defense and sword 100% offense. Corners are vital to blocking. 2-kite- (22"x40") No top corners so you must punch block or sword-block to cover your head. 3-round- (24") no bottom corner so sword has to do more defending then kite 4-targe- (18") smaller then round so sword has to do even more defending. 5-buckler- (10") sword has to do even more defending then with targe. At this point the sword is almost on 100% defense. You have to be very conscience of closing off incoming angles of attack with your sword as you attack. 6-two handed weapon- The sword or polearm is your only shield and must close off incoming angles of attack in every instance it attacks. The pattern you see in the manor I have have listed these is that as you move from large shield to smaller one, the sword must be dedicated more and more to defense. With larger shields you have to actively work your offense around your shield (not move the shield out of the way of the sword). This takes a lot of training to do. Without doubt a large shield will restrict you offense in favor of defense. It is interesting to observe that while the smaller shields give more range of motion, and thus easier offensive capability, they are also self-restricting in that they become more and more dedicated to defense. The two wild cards here are a scutum (square) and two-weapon forms. I classify a scutum in the same category as a kite. The reason is because the scutum gives good leg protection (like kite) but is too bottom heavy to efficiently bring the top corner up to block your head (like heater), so you have to do some sword blocking for your head. So a scutum defense is more kite-like. A coffin shield would also require a similar sword defense as a kite. I regard two-weapon forms (two swords, two axes, mixed) in the same category as buckler. After all the buckler makes a good iron-fist for punching too. It is a similar situation where both hands are almost 100% dedicated to defense. So it appears to me that two-weapon forms are more buckler-like in their defense. The way I am currently fighting with my heater is... the heater is 100% defense and sword is 100% offense. This is the standard I gave above. My training is about to move in a direction where the sword will now be on 95% defense except for that moment that it is actually attacking (shield still 100% defense). This is done by fighting from a guard with the sword blade blocking the opening on the right side of my shield. The sword attacks from there and returns to there. The effectively gives 195% turtle defense. This is the standard of the knights who are training me and why they are able to beat me 95% of the time. note: there are some very good reasons to also fight from a "sword back" position and a shield. You can use the shield to hide the position of the sword. You can also generate more power. This might be useful with a heavier sword, mace or axe. Heaters Kites Oval Rectangular Round/Wankel
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 0:16:23 GMT
From what I have seen, the kite seems to offer superior leg defense than the heater.
Ancalagon
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 2:51:22 GMT
From what I have seen, the kite seems to offer superior leg defense than the heater. Ancalagon Absolutely. The trade-off is head protection. You need to punch-block or sword-block.
|
|
|
Post by alvin on Sept 15, 2008 17:33:17 GMT
Hey tsafa. I know absolutely nada about the proper use of a shield, but have learned much from your videos and posts. Thank you. I’ve got a question for you concerning a fantasy shield and any possible application that it could have in a real fighting scenario. It’s the shield shown being used by the Uruk-hai Orcs in the LOTR movies. It seems that the shield covered an area a little greater than from the elbow to past the end of the hand. I was thinking that, as the shield is held along the arm in such a way that it parallels the forearm, that it might provide a very natural movement in blocking incoming blows – like when one blocks a blow with one’s forearm – and also provide a great range of movement. As the shield is not overly large, movements could be pretty quick. And of course the pointy end could be used as a weapon in itself by punching towards the target. I realize that there must be some reason that this type of shield apparently wasn’t used in historical times, but what do you think of it’s practical use, if any ?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 17:52:46 GMT
The Indians used something similar called Katars, so it is not entirely baseless. They used them more as short knives but I have seen some variations that extended all the way down the forearm and then extended well past the forearm. I believe these were used mostly for guard duty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JurI experimented with a similar type of shield about 3 years ago. I have also fought someone who used it against me. I got a good idea of what its strengths and limitations are. As stabbing weapon it is somewhat limited in range and it is slow. If you want more offense, go with two-sword. You will be able to attack and return to guard faster. In defense you need to block with the tip and catch the incoming blows at their source. This is similar to a buckler but you have less of a blocking area. Once your opponents sword is past the tip of this shield (or horns in this case), you can do nothing to defend except use your sword for blocking. You can't just shift this thing over because it is attached at your elbow. Since this thing is fixed at your elbow you might think of the fighting style as similar to how a boxer blocks with his forearms and jabs from there. However this sort of blocking is only suitable for short jabs. A 30 inch sword blade will find plenty of openings.
|
|
|
Post by alvin on Sept 15, 2008 18:07:55 GMT
Thanks tsafa. I'm glad that you could answer from actual experience. I was curious as it looked so useful in the movies. But I had an idea that, if it was a useful design, it would have been used in historical fighting. In another movie - Cromwell,- Richard Harris uses a similar piece - a forearm protector, not a shield - to block sword strikes. I think that it was called a v ambrace ? But by the time of the English Civil War, most soldiers weren't using shields or even complete armour ? Thanks again for responding to my question, Jim
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 18:11:38 GMT
A Vambrace is just leather wrapped around the forearm. The leather may have steel splints or other reinforcements. It is not intended for blocking, it is just a back up.
|
|
|
Post by alvin on Sept 15, 2008 18:23:10 GMT
Hey tsafa. I know as little about armour as I do about shields - or most everything else for that matter. This is what I was referring to from the movie Cromwell. Again, it is from a movie, so it just may not be historical. PS - Sorry if I'm wandering away from the intent of this thread.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2008 22:26:43 GMT
I don't know if you know it or not Alvin, but you seem like Indian armor very much. The proportions in the photo are distorted because the elbow is closest to the viewer. What you see in the photo is called a "bazuband". It was popular in Asia and the Middle East. It was probably used in Europe too because it is a very simple design. Here is a link to some historic armor: www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1700_1799/localrulers/weapons/weapons.htmlFunny how the site also includes a "katar" the I mentioned earlier. Here is a close up look at some modern reproductions: clang.adkinssoftware.com/arm%20pics/bazu%2002.htmlThe photo is a little weird because normally you wear armor on you sword hand. You don't need armor on your off-hand because you have a shield or buckler there (although you could choose to wear on both arms). I would just discount the photo as Hollywood ignorance. You have still peaked my curiosity and I am going to download the movie.
|
|
|
Post by alvin on Sept 15, 2008 22:55:43 GMT
That's some great info tsafa - Thanks !! I've got some researching to do now. The movie is so - so. The sword play is pretty corny, but the story relating to the English Civil War was fairly interesting as far as weaponry, tactics etc., and sort of follows the historical events of the period. There were some cavalry - German I believe - portrayed wearing almost full armour, but most of the soldiers wore only breastplates and helmets - didn't notice any shields. I guess shields were pretty much out of style in mid 1600 England. Karma 2 U.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2008 0:53:56 GMT
If anyone is looking for durable shields, I recommend By My Hand Designs. www.bymyhanddesigns.com/www.bymyhanddesigns.com/bmhdshields.htmlThey costum cut blanks out of 5052 H38 aluminum for $50 to $60. They are near indestructable. You have to drill and strap youself. I bought mine in person at Pensic but they ship too. If you want a uniqe patern, you can draw it out on paper and mail it to them to trace onto the aluminum and cut.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2008 6:18:23 GMT
I thought I would talk about center grip shields and how they are different then forearm strapped ones.
Center Grip shields are a different fighting style then the ones strapped to the forearm. Center grips are typically used in a punch-block method. They attempt to stop blows where they originate, their opponents shoulder. They tend to be smaller and lighter to tire the arm less because they are fought more extended (or at least make some extended actions). They don't necessarily stop a shot dead in its tracks. The shield-arm gives to absorb the blow from its extended position. A forearm strapped shield is usually heavier because it is stopping the blows at their destination. At this point the blows have had time to accelerate to full momentum and power.
There are advantages and disadvantages to every shield type and their associated fighting style. A large center grip can be very unstable, especially when I start hitting and poking at the edges. They are a lot easier to safely hook because they are fought so extended. When a forearm strapped shield hooks a center grip, the fight is usually over. One way that center grip fighters stabilize their shields is to support it with either the shoulder or sword-hilt (or both in a charge). This reduces the offense and defense capabilities. A center-grip can give some additional offensive options over a forearm strapped shield.
I have seen some very effective use of light center grips. There are no good or bad shields, just different ones. They each have their own fighting style.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2008 13:42:27 GMT
I currently use a long heater as it helps protect my long leg. I like it as it has corners at the top which I use to catch blows. So I get good leg protection and corners.
A good friend of mine uses a rectangle shield (almost like a smaller version of the Roman Scutum). With four corners he can catch a wide variety of shots.
Then another friend of mine uses an oval center grip which he is very good with. It allows more mobility and he can cover different areas as he moves the shield around him rather than fighting around the shield which you do when it is strapped to your arm. Just like Tsafa said the stability is not as solid and a good thrust near the edge will turn the shield side ways in his hand.
As Tsafa said everyone develops their fighting style based on the shield they are using and adjust as necessary. I would be willing to bet someone could take that LotR shield and make it into a valid effective fighting shield. I have seen some pretty crazy designs being used. One was oval with a "V" shape in each end. Those V's played havoc on opponent swords as they would trap or catch the sword easily.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2008 16:28:18 GMT
Like my SCA knight says, "you can fight with anything, if you use it right"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 1:04:17 GMT
Do you have a picture of your BMHD shield? What did you use for the strap and hardware? Is there anything guidelines for body type, arm length etc I would need to know to determine proper size for me? I really like the heaters 13 and 11.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 4:53:52 GMT
BMHD does not strap shields. That is a very individualistic thing. Everyone has different arm-lengths and body proportions. In the past I have made as many as 30 holes in my shields in an attempt to hang it perfectly. In my current shield I finally got it right the first time. My current shield is the fifteenth one I have used. It works well for me. Other people can't stand the way I have it strapped. BMHD just cuts shield blanks to your exact specifications. I recommend you first cut something out of cardboard and play around with it. You might want to go further and cut a plywood shield out of that shape to test it. Then trace the pattern onto a large paper and mail it to them. They will then trace the pattern on their 5052 H38 aluminum and ship it to you. Aluminum drills easy. Below is a picture of my current shield as I have strapped it with leather straps. I strap it so I can fight right-handed or left-handed. Next to it is a reserve shield I have in waiting. This is what BMHD delivers. Next you see the curve. It does not last long in SCA fighting as you can see compared to my old shield. It does not get worst then that, because the edge hits, maintain a little curve. Next you see how I have strapped it so that when I bring my fist up to a boxing position the top corner covers most of my head. From there I just need push a little up, down or sideways. This is what my opponent sees when I am in my ready position: You would think he has a shot at my arm or leg but look at the shot from the side. The swordhand is far back and the bottom corner of my shield stops incoming cuts at a higher point on the opposing blade: This is a plastic proto type I cut out of a 55 gallon plastic drum. Here I use a shieldbasket as a grip. I have it set higher near the corner. This is the more common position for a handle on a heater. On my other one I have the strap lower. This strapping position may work better for you. You have to hold your shieldhand higher in the ready position to get that corner up to your head but it also allows you to drop your shield lower. The arm is back and ready to fire. The blade is up guarding my face on the right side. Note: I still have a minor flaw in my technique. My hilt should be closer to my head and should be firing from there. Something I have been told to work on and I see how evident it is in the photo. I helped myself by taking these photos today. Most people can not hit my sword arm easily in this position, but an SCA knight will find a way through a series of combination shots and movement. Other then that, no one should be able to hit me when I am on full defense using both shield an sword to block. Of course I can't kill anyone on full defense either. I have to go on offense sooner or later. On offense people make mistakes and create openings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 12:25:26 GMT
Nice....I might have to send an order in. How much do they weigh when strapped? What do you use for the edging?
~Jaufres
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 0:28:36 GMT
Thanks for all the info. I will cut some patterns out tommorow and get an idea of what size/shape suit me best. Is there an ideal weight when dealing with shields? Is lighter better, or should it have some mass to it so it doesn't get pushed around too easily?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2008 4:06:32 GMT
Nice....I might have to send an order in. How much do they weigh when strapped? What do you use for the edging? ~Jaufres Mine is 24" x 36". It weighs 9lbs 3 oz strapped. The hockey glove brings it up to 9lbs 12oz. I am 5' 8" with 48" chest and big enough shoulders to hold this comfortably as shown in the pictures. Most people my height go with 22"x 34". It should bring the weight down to about 8 lbs. If you plan to fight in the SCA you will need edging so you don't damage peoples swords. If you line the edge with thick leather it will wear quickly. A lot of people use radiator hose. This can add up to 2 lbs and costs $30. The best edging is sold at Windrose Armory for $1 a foot. Get 10 feet. That is what I use. It is very light and durable. www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=95Thanks for all the info. I will cut some patterns out tommorow and get an idea of what size/shape suit me best. Is there an ideal weight when dealing with shields? Is lighter better, or should it have some mass to it so it doesn't get pushed around too easily? 22"x34" is pretty common at about 8 lbs. Even a 20"x32" shield weighting about 7lbs and strapped to the forearm, is not easy to slam aside, even with a polearm. If you fight with a center grip, it can get knocked aside and otherwise destabilized. One way to stabilize centergrips and light shields and bucklers against polearms and maces is to use your sword to assist in the block. This kind of ties up your offense though but is a viable option. I recommend you cut your desired shape and size out of 1/4" plywood first and test it out. It should come in about 3 lbs heavier then aluminum one will.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2008 7:02:22 GMT
Here is something interesting. Its a Hungarian Shield with messer. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_shieldI wonder to what extent these are real combat weapons and to what extent were they just fighting boredom in the 15th century. We know that Romans did funky things at Gladiatorial Games like have guys fight as Netmen with tridents. Clearly that had mostly an entertainment value because they did not arm legions as such. I wonder (but don't know), if some of the stuff in the 15th century manuals was done for entertainment too.
|
|