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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2008 9:46:21 GMT
Like my SCA knight says, "you can fight with anything, if you use it right" I know many great fighters in person who say exactly that same thing. I do have a few questions for you though. Are shields made out of carbon steel as well? Are they as useful as the 5052 H38 aluminum? I have seen in some movies covering medieval times that they not only absorbed the blows but sometimes used the shield to deflect it. Was this practice used as well? One more thing that I almost forgot. Nice shields, Mate. Another question I almost forgot. Is there any historical basis to the fantasy games use of spikes on their shields?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2008 11:05:39 GMT
I wonder to what extent these are real combat weapons and to what extent were they just fighting boredom in the 15th century. We know that Romans did funky things at Gladiatorial Games like have guys fight as Netmen with tridents. Clearly that had mostly an entertainment value because they did not arm legions as such. I wonder (but don't know), if some of the stuff in the 15th century manuals was done for entertainment too. Uhm, no. Most of the manuals, woodcuts and pictures from that period (like the one you mention) are showing duels of some kind. Of course you wouldn't bring a buckler to war if you had the option to bring a kite-shield, that's not what it was designed for.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2008 14:11:42 GMT
I do have a few questions for you though. Are shields made out of carbon steel as well? Are they as useful as the 5052 H38 aluminum? I have seen in some movies covering medieval times that they not only absorbed the blows but sometimes used the shield to deflect it. Was this practice used as well? One more thing that I almost forgot. Nice shields, Mate. Another question I almost forgot. Is there any historical basis to the fantasy games use of spikes on their shields? Carbon steel is too heavy for a full size shield. You would have to make it very thin and then temper it but then it would still have too much flex. Most of the time you are blocking with the corners and edges. This has to be very ridged and strong. With wooden shield you usually have to reinforce them around the edge if you want it to last even for a short while. I have not seen an example of a shield with a large spike on its face, although I am sure it was tried by someone occasionally. If someone had a spike I would use that spike to hook their shield with my shieldedge and create an opening. I would probably hook and rotate to their shieldside and strike an off-side to the back of their head or neck. Here is a link to a Hungarian shield that had a poking corner. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_shield
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2008 17:50:53 GMT
Carbon steel is too heavy for a full size shield. You would have to make it very thin and then temper it but then it would still have too much flex. Most of the time you are blocking with the corners and edges. This has to be very ridged and strong. With wooden shield you usually have to reinforce them around the edge if you want it to last even for a short while. Shields aren't really meant to be used to parry with the corners or edges, it's better to parry with the "flat". That way they'll last longer and offers more protection. You'd also lower the risk of the opponent's weapon getting stuck in your shield thus giving him a chance to get you off balance (or if you're unlucky, split the shield down to your arm). Large metal shields weren't really ever used, too expensive and heavy. Smaller buckler were often made completely out of metal though. I've seen scottish targes and indian roundshields with a centerspike, basically, since you're using your shield as brass knuckles every now and then anyway, a big pointy spike (easily replacable) is is just another nasty little surprise for the enemy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2008 18:28:36 GMT
Shields aren't really meant to be used to parry with the corners or edges, it's better to parry with the "flat". That way they'll last longer and offers more protection. You'd also lower the risk of the opponent's weapon getting stuck in your shield thus giving him a chance to get you off balance (or if you're unlucky, split the shield down to your arm). There are no details on how the various shields were used historically. I know from practice that a top corner of heater offerers an advantageous position to look around and block. I do 80% of my blocking with that corner as people aim for my head. When I tilt the heater up the top corner also offers an angle of deflection. When you use a shield everyone is aiming either for you head or your leg. The only thing you will likely use the flat for is to stop arrows or the occasionally miss-aimed shot. If you square-up they may take a shot at your body on your sword side which you will block with your edge. If you leave it flat and look over the top, you can now only sword-block your head like kite. There is no point to having a heater. You could just stick with the kite and have the added leg protection. If you raise the shield up flat to block your head, you will blind yourself. Your opponent will time you with a double-tap. One to get you to raise your shield and one to nail you when you lower it. You must never loose sight of your opponent. When you raise the corner up, your head is covered and you can still see.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2008 10:21:23 GMT
Thanks for the insight, Tsafa. + to you, Mate. Though I was not just referring to one big spike in the centre, but also small spikes grouped on the face of it as well. like three in a triangular or four or more in a circular pattern and such. But thanks.
I would have that that they would have used the edge of the face depending on what was more practical at the moment. Some strikes are best deflected with the edge some with the face. then again, what do I know? I am less knowledgeable than an amateur. >_>
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 16:45:40 GMT
About the kite, it's not a question of punch-blocking or sword-blocking. It's a question of shield position. I use a coffin-shaped Kite shield in my SCA fights. Been a few months since I started using it and it took a couple fights to figure it out. You hold it higher with the top angled in and the bottom out and hold your guard in an A-frame position. It's a high-energy shield, much like a center-grip/forward defense is. Very tiring without a Lot of practice. Oh, and I do block primarily with the flat of my shield, though I'm the only one in my Shire that does so. Everyone else uses the edge and primarily that upper, right corner. My shield (well, before I ever used it; it's not so pretty now):
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 23:45:02 GMT
Nice Coffin and Coat of Arms Taran. I would love to see some video of you fighting with a coffin.
BTW, welcome to SBG Taran. I know you will have much to contribute from your fighting experiance.
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Post by alvin on Nov 3, 2008 0:37:32 GMT
Here is something interesting. Its a Hungarian Shield with messer. Those look a lot like the LOTR Orc shields.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 1:38:08 GMT
Nice Coffin and Coat of Arms Taran. I would love to see some video of you fighting with a coffin. BTW, welcome to SBG Taran. I know you will have much to contribute from your fighting experiance. You'll be waiting awhile. Not likely to have any video till my wife gets home to hold the camcorder. And that's assuming she doesn't deploy before we get a chance to do any recording... Oh, I got it from Windrose.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2008 7:27:36 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2008 4:01:08 GMT
Hey, I was looking at your shield position again. It's very much the same way I work but with a much smaller, lighter shield. You have the obvious advantage of less fatigue. I have the obvious advantage of not being able to be chopped in my head. I'd like to go up against you sometime.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2008 5:55:57 GMT
Where in PA do you live? East, West, Central? If you East side, we might meet at one of the NJ practices. If you live further out west, Pennsic is more likely.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2008 17:47:54 GMT
West Central. Out near State College.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2008 18:06:04 GMT
I guess I will have to meet you at Pensic. I camp with Van Hustron on the Sarengeti. It is accross from Drakewald. Pensic should be a very short drive for you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2008 18:15:40 GMT
a mere 2 hours, for the last 4 years. But I still have managed to miss it. This time, though I'm not complaining too much. I got to play with explosives for 2 weeks, instead...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2009 6:17:41 GMT
I came across an image of a Samurai shield from the Heian period (794 to 1185). Here is an illustration of Emperor Jinmu accompanied with a foot soldier carrying a shield. horse.shrine.net/samurai/jinmu.html It seems that the Japanese kept the "tate", a type of pavise, and it seems the "kabuto"or the "jingasa" (equivalent of a kettle hat) would be used as a buckler when one was left with a short sword or dagger. Yagyu Shingan Ryu still practices those techniques Here are some photos of renactors carrying those shields: www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/41052063 www.pbase.com/joanseeuw/image/41052065 Someone had posted this info at My Armory.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2009 13:35:05 GMT
The kite shaped shield is credited to the Normans, circa 900AD; it had largely disappeared with the advent of plate armor but I'm sure it was still used by infantry, if not by mounted knights. Its a good shield shape, most suited for horseback though, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2009 11:58:48 GMT
GREAT thread! Very helpful--thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2009 5:58:02 GMT
The Norman kite was a very small shield designed for mounted soldiers armed primarily with thrown weapons. The Norman invaders of England in 1066 threw their spears, they didn't use them as lances. It went away because the development of the stirrups allowed the development of the lance and eliminated the thrown spear as a weapon for heavy cavalry. Replacing a thrown weapon with the lance allowed a heavier shield.
The Kite as an infantry shield is older than the Normans and has been used in many parts of the world. It disappeared and reappeared many times depending on the preference of the individual warrior carrying it.
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