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Post by warriorpoet on Jun 3, 2021 20:21:44 GMT
I think I might reverse course on this.
If it's basically the same as the current Anduril just swapping carbon for stainless then you still don't have a usable sword due to hilt construction and funky fittings, but you have a far higher maintenance blade.
I do have the mc sting and glamdring but those offer battle weathering, silver inlay, sapphires etc. Still not usable but an upgrade overall I'd say.
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Jash
Member
"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum!"
Posts: 299
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Post by Jash on Jun 22, 2021 19:31:51 GMT
My pleasure! Glad to see others interested in this sword here besides myself lol. warriorpoet - sadly, I doubt this will be "battle worthy" for the reasons you stated. But, like the other MC swords, a higher quality display piece. If I recall, UC is sourcing a factory that could actually silver plate the hilt components like the other MC swords. The fullers and engravings will be more accurate on this sword. It seems UC is going the opposite direction - instead of "battle worn" finish, the MC Anduril will be highly polished - matching the prop sword more. Either way, we probably have a year to decide, and i'm sure there'll be changes and updates made along the way.
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Post by Kane Shen on Jun 23, 2021 3:46:16 GMT
dhall I sincerely hope UC can take a look at an actual functional design for each of the licensed LOTR swords. Not just using carbon steel (which in itself will achieve no functionality at all), but reliable tang and hilt construction, distal tapering and appropriate profile tapering, proper cross section and edge bevel, etc. All of these can be achieved for the $300-500 range, as we can see from the Hanwei and Del Tin offerings. With the upcoming LOTR Amazon series, the IP will be hot again. UC can potentially make a fortune out of the license if they manage to actually make functional weapons, even priced higher than their current wallhanger offerings.
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Post by captainharlock on Jun 24, 2021 23:20:39 GMT
I have the original UC version and it hangs in my office with all of my other swords and knives. For me to upgrade it will have to be a substantial aesthetic improvement if it is not functional.
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Post by Lionhardt on Jun 26, 2021 3:00:09 GMT
Depending on the price, I might buy two and destruction test one of them for everyone. Then we'll know how much they really can handle. I'd do that with my MC Glamdring, but don't feel like wasting $1,100...
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Post by roth on Jul 6, 2021 19:31:44 GMT
dhall With the upcoming LOTR Amazon series, the IP will be hot again. UC can potentially make a fortune out of the license if they manage to actually make functional weapons, even priced higher than their current wallhanger offerings. The new series will definitely be good for business The latest concern is that it is going to be watered down for political correctness but I suppose that for every consumer you lose by going by politically correct rules , you actually gain a consumer who likes them (even though I know nobody personally who likes PC). Still, even if the new series is horrible, a carbon steel Anduril might make me a consumer, depending on what it is like.
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 7, 2021 4:12:12 GMT
dhall With the upcoming LOTR Amazon series, the IP will be hot again. UC can potentially make a fortune out of the license if they manage to actually make functional weapons, even priced higher than their current wallhanger offerings. The new series will definitely be good for business The latest concern is that it is going to be watered down for political correctness but I suppose that for every consumer you lose by going by politically correct rules , you actually gain a consumer who likes them (even though I know nobody personally who likes PC). Still, even if the new series is horrible, a carbon steel Anduril might make me a consumer, depending on what it is like. You do know that having a carbon steel blade alone doesn't make it functional in any shape or form, right? Correct tang dimensions, sound hilt construction method, distal tapering in the blade, harmonic balance, correct cross section and edge geometry, having competent heat treatment (you can have bohler m390, or L6 or 6150, but not having it treated properly makes them no better than scrap metal), these make a sword functional.
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Post by roth on Jul 8, 2021 3:21:21 GMT
How are those determined? Or how are some of those other things determined for that matter? Is there an acceptable standard for those things decided by an organization or are they opinions that are subject to debate?
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 8, 2021 17:57:25 GMT
How are those determined? Or how are some of those other things determined for that matter? Is there an acceptable standard for those things decided by an organization or are they opinions that are subject to debate? They don't need to be "decided by an organization". There is plenty of empirical evidence if you so choose not to ignore them. If you put 4 15X6 wheels on an 6000lbs SUV with a V8 engine, things are not gonna go well, it's not subject to debate, although you are free to believe whatever you want for sure, guaranteed by the 1st amendment. If you enjoy driving an SUV around with a set of miniature wheels, more power to you!! You have that liberty, just don't be offended when people point out you are not actually driving a real car.
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 8, 2021 18:08:18 GMT
How does distal tapering decide whether it's an actual sword? If every single sword used in history made by all cultures around the world all feature distal tapering so the sword can move in certain ways, and you make a sword with 0 distal taper, well it's not a real sword. It can be made of 1045 "high carbon steel", or it can be made of M390 super steel, it's still a lump of steel that's good for maybe hanging on a wall.
Now, you are free to debate the degree of distal tapering appropriate for the sword type and purpose. You can also debate the kind of distal tapering, is it a nice linear distal taper, or is it a well tinkered concave distal taper, or is it a lazy "convex" distal taper. But if you make an object with zero distal tapering, it surely isn't a sword. Call it an SLO, call it a wallhanger, call it a machete, call it a kitchen knife (even my kitchen knives are distally tapered), no problem.
On the other hand, beauty or aesthetics is a subjective matter. Different people have different tastes, and it is indeed subject to debate. Not functionality though. If you check out many of the online reviews of wallhangers and licensed (or unlicensed) products, all they ever do is fawning over how "beautiful" the "sword"s are, without ever mentioning a word about the statistics, handling characteristics and construction methods. I have no idea what these very vague opinions on some highly subjective matters can be considered actual reviews.
On the other hand, I have no problem with United Cutlery's business practice. They have always been very honest, always labeling the licensed products as "decorative pieces for display only", meanwhile seeking community advice on their functional swords. There is absolutely no issue at all selling wallhangers as what they are. In fact, having stainless steel blade is perhaps even more desirable for display items, as they require less maintenance. Incorporating functional characteristics to display pieces isn't practical as they are never meant to be handled in any way, but would increase the cost quite a bit.
Now, since they are introducing carbon steel blade versions, I would presume this aims at having more functional versions of these swords they have been licensed to. I recommend taking another look at the designs of these models and introduce sound hilt construction, tang dimensions, distal tapering and harmonic balance to the sword as they would actually make swords functional. Why bother with carbon steel in the first place otherwise?
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Post by roth on Jul 8, 2021 18:45:08 GMT
How are those determined? Or how are some of those other things determined for that matter? Is there an acceptable standard for those things decided by an organization or are they opinions that are subject to debate? They don't need to be "decided by an organization". There is plenty of empirical evidence if you so choose not to ignore them. If you put 4 15X6 wheels on an 6000lbs SUV with a V8 engine, things are not gonna go well, it's not subject to debate, although you are free to believe whatever you want for sure, guaranteed by the 1st amendment. If you enjoy driving an SUV around with a set of miniature wheels, more power to you!! You have that liberty, just don't be offended when people point out you are not actually driving a real car. Thanks for the response and you have explained it well with this great analogy. But of course there are two schools of thoughts. Advanced collectors would mostly want only functional swords so can rightfully be critical of a collector of decorative swords....yet, if the decorative sword collector derives just as much pleasure from his collection they are both winners. I'm quite certain that a decorative sword collector eventually evolves into a functional sword collector as they learn more and hang around the sword community more. I am just as satisfied and happy with my two cheap swords as a big time collector is with their their two favorites. But I'm sure I will evolve and want a "real car"...but I won't be offensive to somebody who doesn't. I would encourage them to grow.
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Post by roth on Jul 8, 2021 18:48:31 GMT
Thanks for the tang illustration Nathaniel. I'm supposed to be getting two sword books in the mail today or tomorrow. I mentioned them in a different thread....The Book of the Sword by Richard F Burton and Records of the Medieval Sword by Ewart Oakenshott. Is a full length tang the only one serious collectors accept?
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 8, 2021 19:04:35 GMT
They don't need to be "decided by an organization". There is plenty of empirical evidence if you so choose not to ignore them. If you put 4 15X6 wheels on an 6000lbs SUV with a V8 engine, things are not gonna go well, it's not subject to debate, although you are free to believe whatever you want for sure, guaranteed by the 1st amendment. If you enjoy driving an SUV around with a set of miniature wheels, more power to you!! You have that liberty, just don't be offended when people point out you are not actually driving a real car. Thanks for the response and you have explained it well with this great analogy. But of course there are two schools of thoughts. Advanced collectors would mostly want only functional swords so can rightfully be critical of a collector of decorative swords....yet, if the decorative sword collector derives just as much pleasure from his collection they are both winners. I'm quite certain that a decorative sword collector eventually evolves into a functional sword collector as they learn more and hang around the sword community more. I am just as satisfied and happy with my two cheap swords as a big time collector is with their their two favorites. But I'm sure I will evolve and want a "real car"...but I won't be offensive to somebody who doesn't. I would encourage them to grow. I have no problem with people collecting decorative wallhanger. However, designating these objects as "strictly for display only" and non-functional is crucially important, as they are very hazardous if you are to handle them as actual functional swords--for the most part not because they are made of stainless steel, but having non-functional hilt construction and tang dimensions/heat treatment, on top of having grossly incorrect balance and mass distribution. Pointing it out isn't offensive. On the contrary, not pointing it out is not only offensive, but also inhumanely irresponsible. If you see someone driving towards a cliff unknowingly, and not informing them is quite immoral. I hope we can agree on that.
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Post by roth on Jul 8, 2021 19:06:00 GMT
How does distal tapering decide whether it's an actual sword? If every single sword used in history made by all cultures around the world all feature distal tapering so the sword can move in certain ways, and you make a sword with 0 distal taper, well it's not a real sword. It can be made of 1045 "high carbon steel", or it can be made of M390 super steel, it's still a lump of steel that's good for maybe hanging on a wall. Now, you are free to debate the degree of distal tapering appropriate for the sword type and purpose. You can also debate the kind of distal tapering, is it a nice linear distal taper, or is it a well tinkered concave distal taper, or is it a lazy "convex" distal taper. But if you make an object with zero distal tapering, it surely isn't a sword. Call it an SLO, call it a wallhanger, call it a machete, call it a kitchen knife (even my kitchen knives are distally tapered), no problem. On the other hand, beauty or aesthetics is a subjective matter. Different people have different standards, and it is indeed subject to debate. Not functionality though. If you check out many of the online reviews of wallhangers and licensed (or unlicensed) products, all they ever do is fawning over how "beautiful" the "sword"s are, without ever mentioning a word about the statistics, handling characteristics and construction methods. I have no idea what these very value opinions on some highly subjective matters can be considered actual reviews. On the other hand, I have no problem with United Cutlery's business practice. They have always been very honest, always labeling the licensed products as "decorative pieces for display only", meanwhile seeking community advice on their functional swords. There is absolutely no issue at all selling wallhangers as what they are. In fact, having stainless steel blade is perhaps even more desirable for display items, as they require less maintenance. Incorporating functional characteristics to display pieces isn't practical as they are never meant to be handled in any way, but would increase the cost quite a bit. Now, since they are introducing carbon steel blade versions, I would presume this aims at having more functional versions of these swords they have been licensed to. I recommend taking another look at the designs of these models and introduce sound hilt construction, tang dimensions, distal tapering and harmonic balance to the sword as they would actually make swords functional. Why bother with carbon steel in the first place otherwise? Great post Kane! I'm sure learning a lot here thanks to people like you.
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Post by roth on Jul 8, 2021 19:10:38 GMT
Thanks for the response and you have explained it well with this great analogy. But of course there are two schools of thoughts. Advanced collectors would mostly want only functional swords so can rightfully be critical of a collector of decorative swords....yet, if the decorative sword collector derives just as much pleasure from his collection they are both winners. I'm quite certain that a decorative sword collector eventually evolves into a functional sword collector as they learn more and hang around the sword community more. I am just as satisfied and happy with my two cheap swords as a big time collector is with their their two favorites. But I'm sure I will evolve and want a "real car"...but I won't be offensive to somebody who doesn't. I would encourage them to grow. I have no problem with people collecting decorative wallhanger. However, designating these objects as "strictly for display only" and non-functional is crucially important, as they are very hazardous if you are to handle them as actual functional swords--for the most part not because they are made of stainless steel, but having non-functional hilt construction and tang dimensions/heat treatment, on top of having grossly incorrect balance and mass distribution. Pointing it out isn't offensive. On the contrary, not pointing it out is not only offensive, but also inhumanely irresponsible. If you see someone driving towards a cliff unknowingly, and not informing them is quite immoral. I hope we can agree on that. Another great post! I see a pattern here. Thanks.
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Post by roth on Jul 8, 2021 19:23:20 GMT
So, when you buy a (relatively) cheaper sword, like my Rittersteel Warlord sword pictured here, is there a way of knowing what the tang is like?. It was advertised as full tang as I recall but do manufacturers stretch things? For example, a rat tail tang is full length. Could that be advertised as a full length tang without mentioning that it is rat tail?
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 8, 2021 21:00:31 GMT
So, when you buy a (relatively) cheaper sword, like my Rittersteel Warlord sword pictured here, is there a way of knowing what the tang is like?. It was advertised as full tang as I recall but do manufacturers stretch things? For example, a rat tail tang is full length. Could that be advertised as a full length tang without mentioning that it is rat tail? Well, you can try to research online. Some people on forums such as SBG and MyArmoury do take swords apart to reveal individual components. About rat tail tang, there's a big confusion around it. Rat-tail tang is usually a derogatory term for inadequate tang with dubious construction methods. In the sword world, it usually refers to tangs made of a separate rod welded to the blade. They are not only too thin, but also not heat-treated. Being welded to the blade itself is a great structural weakness. They are also not peened, but screwed or welded onto a very poorly constructed thread. This for a display only, is generally OK, even though not preferable, but without any sort of impact, the gravity of other components alone would unlikely to cause to the sword-like-object to fail. If you use the object in any sword-related activity, this is the first place to fail. The insignificant dimension also makes the rat-tail tang very light, so it wouldn't counter-balance the blade well, along with the pommel. This is a far lesser problem, of course, comparing to the imminent failure when you handle the object as if it was a sword. In knife-making sword, tangs are usually full-width and exposed as the grip is made of two scales. Some knife makers refer to non-exposed tang as rat-tail tang, which is a misconception, as most swords in history have hidden tangs, and thus non-full-width, this does not make them rat-tail though. Personally I haven’t handled or owned any Rittersteel swords, but by their reputation they produce mostly non-functional swords. One glance of the weight alone can reveal that the swords are not functional, as they are way overweight for their size. Kult of Athena measured the sword in the picture. Almost 7 lbs for a 34" blade, that is over twice the weight as it should have been. To clarify, 7 lbs for a sword isn't necessarily a problem, but you generally find swords of similar weight with a overall length of 65-80". You see what I mean? 1 lb is a very light weight for even a toddler. However, a 1-lb pencil is a non-functional pencil. And then you look at their profile and it's completely wrong as the mass distribution on the blade is the complete opposite of the one you would want on a sword. Leaf-bladed swords exist in history, but they are: 1. very short, like the xiphos; 2. the curve of the leaf-shape happen at the point of percussion, instead of being near the tip, and the curvature is very gentle; 3. they have a great amount of distal taper to offset the swell in the profile. This sword has none of those, so to bring the balance back closer to the hilt, they use some very excessively chunky brass (or very likely brass-accent stainless steel) as fittings. The concept of this sword wouldn't be an issue in a comical universe like Warcraft, as it would be consistent with the proportion in that franchise, where humans have hands of the size of an entire torso. But if you make swords like that in our reality, they just don't work. Now to clarify, I'm not against of them existing, just to say they are for display only. So you see, even if we are being charitable and assume the tang's dimensions and construction are sound, it still wouldn't make a functional sword. On other swords--especially licensed products with non-stainless steel blades, the soundness of the tang's construction can become a topic of discussion, if other criteria such as the distal taper, cross section, edge geometry, harmonic balance have no issue. As we have seen before, some swords satisfy all the criteria above but eventually failed and a tang too small, too soft or too brittle revealed to be the issue.
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Post by roth on Jul 9, 2021 4:33:26 GMT
Thanks Kane.That was a very informative post. I appreciate you taking the time to type it. After I found out that my UC Anduril wasn't a real sword, it bothered me a bit but in my heart it is a real sword so that's really all that matters. I feel the same way about the Warlord sword. It is closer to a real sword than the Anduril but would still fall short in the eyes of real swordsmen, but to me is big time. When I move onto the next level I will look at the first 2 like I do my old Mustang. Despite it's faults it will always be my first car and even if I own 100 cars, it's legacy is sealed and so is the legacy of swords number one and two. At this point in time I only plan on buying two more swords...my favorite candidate so far is the Albion Duke. I also would like to have my own design made someday. I could end up with a collection of swords worth $150, $250, $1400 and $4,000 before I'm all done and I bet I'll call each one my favorite.
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 9, 2021 6:00:26 GMT
Thanks Kane.That was a very informative post. I appreciate you taking the time to type it. After I found out that my UC Anduril wasn't a real sword, it bothered me a bit but in my heart it is a real sword so that's really all that matters. I feel the same way about the Warlord sword. It is closer to a real sword than the Anduril but would still fall short in the eyes of real swordsmen, but to me is big time. When I move onto the next level I will look at the first 2 like I do my old Mustang. Despite it's faults it will always be my first car and even if I own 100 cars, it's legacy is sealed and so is the legacy of swords number one and two. At this point in time I only plan on buying two more swords...my favorite candidate so far is the Albion Duke. I also would like to have my own design made someday. I could end up with a collection of swords worth $150, $250, $1400 and $4,000 before I'm all done and I bet I'll call each one my favorite. See there's no problem with enjoying a decorative wallhanger as long as you are not lying to yourself and take it for something it is not. It's not the price that determines the functionality. A $240 Hanwei Tinker longsword can be decidedly functional while a $20000 high-end wallhangers (there are some of those out there for sale) isn't, it's the same way that your old Mustang is a real car while Radio Flyer "Tesla for Kid" isn't one. It may cost twice or three time as your old Mustang, and have all the bells and whistles with rims made of Titanium alloy and onboard tablet computer, but it runs on a motor so it's not a real car.
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Jul 9, 2021 12:38:25 GMT
You can do a search on YouTube to find sword failures, not to be confused with people getting stupid and injuring themselves and others. You'll find them there also. Here’s one by SBG’s top man concerning tangs.
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