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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 2, 2022 20:34:38 GMT
Angle is a pretty well-documented issue . . . I shoot primarily 2011/1911 pattern handguns and when you get used to that, and then present with a Glock, you end up with a very high front sight. Yeah you can adjust, but if you train for that perfect presentation every time switching grip angles is a real problem Not sure what you mean by "issue" 1911 grip angles are not better than Glock grip angles, and that was my point. Glock grip angles aren't better than 1911's. If you can't shoot a Glock, it's you, not the gun. Grip angle on RIFLES can be an issue as you might introduce stress into your wrist depending on the length of pull, grip angle, and a few other factors. Maybe you can make the argument that you're able to angle down more aggressively on the Glock for faster follow up, but weight of the pistol and your practice with it (as well as caliber of course) will factor in well before the grip angle. On a pistol? It's all training. It isn't an issue with the Glock that you can't shoot it. That's your issue, because your muscle memory is locked into a 1911. Which is fine. It's just not the better platform to be locked into. If you had muscle memory locked into a P10C, or a PPQ, at least you would be locked into a pistol that is less finnicky, less maintenance heavy, holds more rounds, and carry's better. For the record I love 1911's and 2011's. My 10mm 2011 is a sweet shooter. I personally prefer the double stack on a 2011 to basically any other pistol so far as grip comfort goes. But I don't carry it concealed... that would be ridiculous lol. I disagree. The biomechanics of handgun grip angle/wrist angle are very capable of inducing stress depending on your individual physiological makeup. Building muscle memory to the 1911 grip angle transfers well to every other handgun with the same grip angle. Building muscle memory to the Glock grip angle transfers very well to other handguns with the same grip angle; Sig/HK/Walther etc... To the best of my knowledge, the other handgun with the grip angel of a Glock is the P08 Luger. Training to build muscle memory is everything, regardless of the platform. |
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Post by tommyh on Jan 2, 2022 20:35:34 GMT
Not sure what you mean by "issue" 1911 grip angles are not better than Glock grip angles, and that was my point. Glock grip angles aren't better than 1911's. If you can't shoot a Glock, it's you, not the gun. Grip angle on RIFLES can be an issue as you might introduce stress into your wrist depending on the length of pull, grip angle, and a few other factors. Maybe you can make the argument that you're able to angle down more aggressively on the Glock for faster follow up, but weight of the pistol and your practice with it (as well as caliber of course) will factor in well before the grip angle. On a pistol? It's all training. It isn't an issue with the Glock that you can't shoot it. That's your issue, because your muscle memory is locked into a 1911. Which is fine. It's just not the better platform to be locked into. If you had muscle memory locked into a P10C, or a PPQ, at least you would be locked into a pistol that is less finnicky, less maintenance heavy, holds more rounds, and carry's better. For the record I love 1911's and 2011's. My 10mm 2011 is a sweet shooter. I personally prefer the double stack on a 2011 to basically any other pistol so far as grip comfort goes. But I don't carry it concealed... that would be ridiculous lol. By issue I mean point of contention. I'm not saying one is inherently better or worse ergonomically, although some would make that argument. The problem is that Glock is holding on to a grip angle that no one else uses. Practically every other modern pistol, including the P10 and PPQ that you mentioned, use a 1911 grip angle. So if my muscle memory is trained to a 1911, I can switch to M&P, VP9, FN 509, etc. without an issue. Same can't be said for Glock. And it's not that an unusual grip angle makes a gun unshootable, it's that the unusual grip angle of the Glock makes my muscle memory useless. Glock is like Trijicon. They see everyone else doing one thing but they have to stick to their own way of doing it, even though the rest of the industry has established an unofficial standard. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but it makes people like me, who spend a lot of time developing proficiency in one "platform" (and I use that term lightly here) hold back from spending the money. |
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Post by theophilus736 on Jan 5, 2022 22:09:55 GMT
I disagree. The biomechanics of handgun grip angle/wrist angle are very capable of inducing stress depending on your individual physiological makeup. Disagree all you like. I don't mind. If the grip angle of the Glock induces stress on an individual, biomechanically or otherwise, it's them. Not the gun. lol By issue I mean point of contention. I'm not saying one is inherently better or worse ergonomically, although some would make that argument. The problem is that Glock is holding on to a grip angle that no one else uses. Practically every other modern pistol, including the P10 and PPQ that you mentioned, use a 1911 grip angle. So if my muscle memory is trained to a 1911, I can switch to M&P, VP9, FN 509, etc. without an issue. Same can't be said for Glock. And it's not that an unusual grip angle makes a gun unshootable, it's that the unusual grip angle of the Glock makes my muscle memory useless. Glock is like Trijicon. They see everyone else doing one thing but they have to stick to their own way of doing it, even though the rest of the industry has established an unofficial standard. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but it makes people like me, who spend a lot of time developing proficiency in one "platform" (and I use that term lightly here) hold back from spending the money. Sure, I get what you mean better now. I agree. No need to jump to a Glock if it just messes with your grip and point of aim if you can move to any of the myriad of 1911-esque grip angled striker fired guns out there. But it does work, and without stressing your wrists. Most duty-use groups hold it in high regard for a reason, though at my job it's the M&P (which is great). I'll expect your conversion when they change the angle  . I also love Trijicon as a company, but yeah.. I buy the MRO and then I'm just kind of like "welp... they don't really sell anything else I need". |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jan 6, 2022 0:10:50 GMT
I think the Trijicon tritium reflex sights look awesome but I’ve heard they are abysmally dim.
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Post by tommyh on Jan 7, 2022 19:20:28 GMT
I disagree. The biomechanics of handgun grip angle/wrist angle are very capable of inducing stress depending on your individual physiological makeup. Disagree all you like. I don't mind. If the grip angle of the Glock induces stress on an individual, biomechanically or otherwise, it's them. Not the gun. lol By issue I mean point of contention. I'm not saying one is inherently better or worse ergonomically, although some would make that argument. The problem is that Glock is holding on to a grip angle that no one else uses. Practically every other modern pistol, including the P10 and PPQ that you mentioned, use a 1911 grip angle. So if my muscle memory is trained to a 1911, I can switch to M&P, VP9, FN 509, etc. without an issue. Same can't be said for Glock. And it's not that an unusual grip angle makes a gun unshootable, it's that the unusual grip angle of the Glock makes my muscle memory useless. Glock is like Trijicon. They see everyone else doing one thing but they have to stick to their own way of doing it, even though the rest of the industry has established an unofficial standard. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but it makes people like me, who spend a lot of time developing proficiency in one "platform" (and I use that term lightly here) hold back from spending the money. Sure, I get what you mean better now. I agree. No need to jump to a Glock if it just messes with your grip and point of aim if you can move to any of the myriad of 1911-esque grip angled striker fired guns out there. But it does work, and without stressing your wrists. Most duty-use groups hold it in high regard for a reason, though at my job it's the M&P (which is great). I'll expect your conversion when they change the angle . I also love Trijicon as a company, but yeah.. I buy the MRO and then I'm just kind of like "welp... they don't really sell anything else I need". Oh you've got me, the second they change the angle I'll buy at least one. I like the look of Glocks. I've shot a few, and even owned one for a while, and the grip doesn't stress me at all, it's just different. When it comes to life-saving equipment, I don't want to have to think, "wait, what gun did I just grab? How do I properly present it?" I'm going to buy an M&P with a thumb safety. Not because I think the gun needs one, but because I shoot mostly 1911s and I'm used to one being there. I want everything to function as close to identical as possible. I think duty guys hold it in such high regard because Glock was the first player in the polymer game. Not to say it's not a good gun in its own right, but it was also first. Now everyone, no matter how good, is playing catch-up. In such a competitive marketplace it'll be near impossible for anyone to develop the clout that Glock enjoys, much less actually surpass Glock in popularity. |
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Post by tommyh on Jan 7, 2022 19:21:36 GMT
I think the Trijicon tritium reflex sights look awesome but I’ve heard they are abysmally dim. I liked the idea of battery-less optics but in truth batteries are just easier to deal with on the fly. |
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Post by benspe on Jan 20, 2022 11:39:17 GMT
If you need a small and handy gun, you can try it. The best way to know the answer for sure is to read many reviews from a different perspective.If you need a small and handy gun, you can try it. The best way to know the answer for sure is to read many reviews from a different perspective. Recently, I bought a Glock 44, and I'm super satisfied with it. Before making this decision, I look on the internet for the best Glock 44 review to ensure this is perfect for me. Before buying a gun, I understood that it's essential to know why you need it. Personal use, professional needs, or collections are just some criteria that make a huge difference. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jan 20, 2022 13:50:09 GMT
If you need a small and handy gun, you can try it. The best way to know the answer for sure is to read many reviews from a different perspective. I ended up getting the Glock 19 Gen 5 and enjoy it a lot but am looking at a true compact pistol like the SIG P365 or Glock 48 now to have something even smaller because the Glock 19 is basically a duty pistol for someone my size. |
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Post by shotokan on Jan 21, 2022 2:54:18 GMT
If you need a small and handy gun, you can try it. The best way to know the answer for sure is to read many reviews from a different perspective. I ended up getting the Glock 19 Gen 5 and enjoy it a lot but am looking at a true compact pistol like the SIG P365 or Glock 48 now to have something even smaller because the Glock 19 is basically a duty pistol for someone my size. If you like the sig p365 but want to stay with glocks' framework try out the g43X (10+1). I have the g43 (6+1) single stack and love it. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jan 21, 2022 3:14:03 GMT
I ended up getting the Glock 19 Gen 5 and enjoy it a lot but am looking at a true compact pistol like the SIG P365 or Glock 48 now to have something even smaller because the Glock 19 is basically a duty pistol for someone my size. If you like the sig p365 but want to stay with glocks' framework try out the g43X (10+1). I have the g43 (6+1) single stack and love it. I’ve been eyeing that one too if I get a smaller handgun. |
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seth
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Post by seth on Jan 21, 2022 15:54:06 GMT
If you like the sig p365 but want to stay with glocks' framework try out the g43X (10+1). I have the g43 (6+1) single stack and love it. I’ve been eyeing that one too if I get a smaller handgun. I have both the 43x and 365--both are great compact handguns. The 365 edges out the 43x because I think it conceals better and the trigger is really good. I also really like that night sights come standard on it. |
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Post by shotokan on Jan 21, 2022 16:10:02 GMT
I’ve been eyeing that one too if I get a smaller handgun. I have both the 43x and 365--both are great compact handguns. The 365 edges out the 43x because I think it conceals better and the trigger is really good. I also really like that night sights come standard on it. I love sig, my p938 is one of the best handguns I have ever owned and I really enjoy shooting it, but for some reason I just can't seem to come around on the 365. My g43 is enjoyable to carry/shoot and has become my main edc weapon, the only thing that keeps it from surpassing the 365, imo, is the lack of options when you buy a glock. Every glock I buy gets a set of tritium night sights before I walk out with it. |
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seth
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Post by seth on Jan 21, 2022 16:32:53 GMT
I have both the 43x and 365--both are great compact handguns. The 365 edges out the 43x because I think it conceals better and the trigger is really good. I also really like that night sights come standard on it. I love sig, my p938 is one of the best handguns I have ever owned and I really enjoy shooting it, but for some reason I just can't seem to come around on the 365. My g43 is enjoyable to carry/shoot and has become my main edc weapon, the only thing that keeps it from surpassing the 365, imo, is the lack of options when you buy a glock. Every glock I buy gets a set of tritium night sights before I walk out with it. Yeah my hope is that since Sig started making night sights standard Glock, S&W, etc. follow suit. Of course now the trend seems to be red dots on handguns. I haven't gone down that road yet. A gentleman let me shoot his P320 with a red dot at the range, and it was pretty slick. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jan 21, 2022 16:47:57 GMT
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seth
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Post by seth on Jan 21, 2022 17:31:34 GMT
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tera
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Posts: 1,269
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Post by tera on Jan 21, 2022 17:53:17 GMT
I have nothing bad to say about the M&P 2.0 line mechanically. In fact, I was including the line in general in my recommendation list. LOTS of Law Enforcement agencies adopted it. You can even find LEO trade-ins out there (usually full-sized .40 S&W). The only thing is even the Subcompact with smallest backstrap is likely to be the "fattest" grip when compared to a Sig 365 or Glock 43X or 48 due to it being double-stack. Definitely try on the M&P 2.0 line, they are good options. Avoid the Springfield XD line, their bore axis is absurdly high.
Now, if the M&P 2.0 series is still too fat but you like the general feel and grip angle, S&W offers a single stack line called the Shield (famously used by some Agents of Shield in an MCU movie). It is about the size of a Glock 48, but available with OR without an external manual safety. That safety is very flush-fitting, though, and it took me a couple of weeks of handling them daily to get to where I could engage and disengage it quickly, without fail, every time. Most people can reach it with their thumb to disengage it, but have to change shooting grip and/or use their off-hand to engage it. This doesn't strike me as a major problem. As I would often say, "You need to be able to reliably disengage the safety quickly under threat. I can think of no scenario where you would need to rapidly engage the safety under threat, so take your time on that side of things."
We had lots of fans of the Sig 365, but I believe it was initially overhyped and had issues at launch. Among other things, the timing of the action was resulting in shearing force on the firing pin, leading to many firing pins breaking. They have since done their recalls and fixed the issues so one made recently should have no problems. For the money, it is a great little platform. Especially when compared to the cost of Kimber Micros or Sig P938s.
The Glock 43X and 48 models just worked. Glock didn't really innovate on their design much, after all, other than scale it down. So, reliable little suckers. But, they still have that Glock trigger feel and unique grip.
Side Note: I know I've been pushing the 48, but the 43X does have extra concealability going for it and as long as you make VERY sure to get a 43X (NOT a standard 43) the magazines are interchangeable with the longer gripped 48. So, it gets you scalability in terms of capacity.
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Post by nerdthenord on Jan 21, 2022 18:02:53 GMT
Handgun hero is a lifesaver. Doesn't beat handling one but does let me automatically rule out some that are WAY too big for me. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jan 21, 2022 18:07:03 GMT
I have nothing bad to say about the M&P 2.0 line mechanically. In fact, I was including the line in general in my recommendation list. LOTS of Law Enforcement agencies adopted it. You can even find LEO trade-ins out there (usually full-sized .40 S&W). The only thing is even the Subcompact with smallest backstrap is likely to be the "fattest" grip when compared to a Sig 365 or Glock 43X or 48 due to it being double-stack. Definitely try on the M&P 2.0 line, they are good options. Avoid the Springfield XD line, their bore axis is absurdly high. Now, if the M&P 2.0 series is still too fat but you like the general feel and grip angle, S&W offers a single stack line called the Shield (famously used by some Agents of Shield in an MCU movie). It is about the size of a Glock 48, but available with OR without an external manual safety. That safety is very flush-fitting, though, and it took me a couple of weeks of handling them daily to get to where I could engage and disengage it quickly, without fail, every time. Most people can reach it with their thumb to disengage it, but have to change shooting grip and/or use their off-hand to engage it. This doesn't strike me as a major problem. As I would often say, "You need to be able to reliably disengage the safety quickly under threat. I can think of no scenario where you would need to rapidly engage the safety under threat, so take your time on that side of things." We had lots of fans of the Sig 365, but I believe it was initially overhyped and had issues at launch. Among other things, the timing of the action was resulting in shearing force on the firing pin, leading to many firing pins breaking. They have since done their recalls and fixed the issues so one made recently should have no problems. For the money, it is a great little platform. Especially when compared to the cost of Kimber Micros or Sig P938s. The Glock 43X and 48 models just worked. Glock didn't really innovate on their design much, after all, other than scale it down. So, reliable little suckers. But, they still have that Glock trigger feel and unique grip. Side Note: I know I've been pushing the 48, but the 43X does have extra concealability going for it and as long as you make VERY sure to get a 43X (NOT a standard 43) the magazines are interchangeable with the longer gripped 48. So, it gets you scalability in terms of capacity. I wonder if Disney and S&W had some sort of agreement with their Marvel properties because the M&P series pops up a lot in The Punisher Netflix series too. I really wish I known because propstore did an auction of Punisher props in December and I could have gotten Billy Russo's prop M&P 9c and a few other items for only 300 or so (that's what it sold for, 10 bids).  |
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tera
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Post by tera on Jan 21, 2022 18:19:03 GMT
I honestly don't know, but I'd like to see the day Disney publically acknowledges a brand marketing deal with a firearms manufacturer. The other direction works, too. I'll be first in line for a "Stark Industries" branded railgun.
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Post by shotokan on Jan 21, 2022 18:23:09 GMT
I love sig, my p938 is one of the best handguns I have ever owned and I really enjoy shooting it, but for some reason I just can't seem to come around on the 365. My g43 is enjoyable to carry/shoot and has become my main edc weapon, the only thing that keeps it from surpassing the 365, imo, is the lack of options when you buy a glock. Every glock I buy gets a set of tritium night sights before I walk out with it. Yeah my hope is that since Sig started making night sights standard Glock, S&W, etc. follow suit. Of course now the trend seems to be red dots on handguns. I haven't gone down that road yet. A gentleman let me shoot his P320 with a red dot at the range, and it was pretty slick. I am still debating getting a g19 gen 4 MOS and putting a red dot on it, among a crap ton of other mods... problem is the wife, she thinks I have enough "guns" and 4 katana's, two of which i've bought within the last 2 weeks. |
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. I also love Trijicon as a company, but yeah.. I buy the MRO and then I'm just kind of like "welp... they don't really sell anything else I need". 
Things have changed!