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Post by sjoebarry on Apr 5, 2020 20:28:06 GMT
Got a Ten Ryu katana. Habaki was loose front to back. Went to take the whole thing apart to try to fix it and WOW there was a ton of glue in here. glue inside the tsuka, glue on the tsuba, and a glob of glue on one side of the habaki (i guess to try and keep it stable?). Anyway, i got all the glue chipped off. put a friggin nick in the tsuba though which pisses me off. But im gonna put it back together and im expecting everything to be loose. Can someone give me some tips on how to get tight fits on the parts, hopefully without relying on glue? THANKS!
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 5, 2020 21:21:44 GMT
Wood or paper shims inside the habaki and nakago-ana of the tsuba, or throw an extra seppa in there and hope compression "fixes" it...
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Post by paulmuaddib on Apr 5, 2020 22:54:07 GMT
I agree with random except I would use brass sheeting to shim the Habaki. You can buy it at craft or hobby stores. It comes in varied thicknesses and widths. I did a katana of mine with that.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 5, 2020 23:06:21 GMT
Brass, wood, or paper will work for shimming as well as other materials such as aluminium . I would be more concerned about the thickness of the material than the type. This includes what’s the easiest to correct to make fit.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 5, 2020 23:22:14 GMT
As the others have said, brass, aluminum, etc would serve just as well, but I figure paper or wood (I'm thinking strips of balsam or similar) would be both cheaper and easier.
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Post by nddave on Apr 6, 2020 0:45:57 GMT
Yea a cheap alternative to brass sheets and the like is aluminum foil, get the good barbeque stuff that doesnt tear easy and shape you some shims. Works great for tsuba play too, just shape and pack it in the gaps.
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Post by heretohelp on Apr 6, 2020 1:27:27 GMT
while metal bits can work, they can also shift or fall out with use and during future disassembly. since it's not a precious antique or super expensive one-off, I would recommend a more permanent remedy of using jb weld. you can apply some to the sides and front/back, let it dry and then use a needle file to make a proper fit to the nakago. this should keep it from moving and won't fall out or shift. I've done this on tsuba too, in place of copper sekigane and it worked and held very well.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 6, 2020 17:49:34 GMT
JB Weld is a valid option for anybody wanting a permanent solution, but since the original request was for a non-permanent solution, I'm not sure it's what we're looking for.
Granted, JB Weld or any epoxy can be used with, say, plastic wrap, wax paper, or similar to shape to the nakago for a "perfect" fit without "permanent" assembly, but that's a tricky process.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 6, 2020 18:58:09 GMT
while metal bits can work, they can also shift or fall out with use and during future disassembly. since it's not a precious antique or super expensive one-off, I would recommend a more permanent remedy of using jb weld. you can apply some to the sides and front/back, let it dry and then use a needle file to make a proper fit to the nakago. this should keep it from moving and won't fall out or shift. I've done this on tsuba too, in place of copper sekigane and it worked and held very well. Sjoe specifically states in op “hopefully without relying on glue? THANKS!”. He went to the trouble of removing what was already there and doesn’t want more.
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Post by heretohelp on Apr 7, 2020 2:49:20 GMT
the suggestion was not for a permanent attachment of nakago to habaki, in other words, not to glue the habaki to the nakago. the idea is to use the jb weld to fill the empty spaces that allow the habaki to wiggle. once the jb weld dries inside of the habaki (on inner sides and front/back), you file the dried epoxy until the habaki fits on the nakago without movement. you're just filling in the cavities where there should have been metal with jb weld. it will still be able to be disassembled as usual, only there won't be metal shims shifting and falling out when you do. again, this is a suggestion because it's a production sword, not meant for a valuable, antique or otherwise irreplaceable sword. if that were the case, the only sensible solution would be to have a new habaki properly made. it's basically the same solution as using metal bits, only more stable and secure.
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Post by heretohelp on Apr 7, 2020 2:55:29 GMT
here is the idea but on an ill fitting tsuba instead of habaki. the tsuba in this case will not be permanently attached to the nakago since the jb weld is already dry, it now just needs to be filed to fit the nakago perfectly, to fix the wiggle.
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Post by heretohelp on Apr 7, 2020 3:03:42 GMT
here is a similar example, only a thin piece of copper was also inlaid into the jb weld before it dried. either way would work
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 7, 2020 12:54:40 GMT
I’ll go along with cementing a shim in place. I’ve done that. The cement holds the shim while I tweak it with a file or sandpaper. I think most to the suggestions about shim types etc. had this in mind. This will take out the play and allow disassembly.
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Post by heretohelp on Apr 7, 2020 16:48:11 GMT
yes, it would work just fine with or without the addition of the metal shim. I've used just the weld in situations like this and it held the fitting in place perfectly. I find it's a quick, easy and affordable solution for production sword adjustments
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 7, 2020 17:01:24 GMT
well, I'm a bad example. But for my first cheap katana I ended up taking the silk wrap off the handle, throwing everything else away, and wrapping the silk directly onto the tang. Because the bottom of the blade is too close to my hand by then, I took a hammer and pounded the first inch or so of the blade flat, widening the metal there, and roughing it so that the silk didn't slip, and my hand could go there safely.
I mean it's just a cheap katana. If you ask me, you don't lose any value, the whole sword is more stable when you can better grip the blade itself, it looks beautifully apocalyptic, and all it takes is a few seconds when you pick it up to tighten up the wrap to keep the handle nice and tight. The silk is better than parachord, which slips easily. It doesn't shift around if it's tight, and it can't roll because its flat. The tang is a tad bit shorter than with the handle, but not much, and for me, because the handle wasn't very good, my cutting power definitely increased. (you have to be more careful about bending the sword on a bad strike, though)
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Post by jayotterstein on Apr 8, 2020 20:07:37 GMT
well, I'm a bad example. But for my first cheap katana I ended up taking the silk wrap off the handle, throwing everything else away, and wrapping the silk directly onto the tang. Because the bottom of the blade is too close to my hand by then, I took a hammer and pounded the first inch or so of the blade flat, widening the metal there, and roughing it so that the silk didn't slip, and my hand could go there safely. I mean it's just a cheap katana. If you ask me, you don't lose any value, the whole sword is more stable when you can better grip the blade itself, it looks beautifully apocalyptic, and all it takes is a few seconds when you pick it up to tighten up the wrap to keep the handle nice and tight. The silk is better than parachord, which slips easily. It doesn't shift around if it's tight, and it can't roll because its flat. The tang is a tad bit shorter than with the handle, but not much, and for me, because the handle wasn't very good, my cutting power definitely increased. (you have to be more careful about bending the sword on a bad strike, though) I would have serious considerations of general safety just wrapping the nakago in Ito. If that wrap comes even the slightest bit loose you could have the whole blade go flying out from your hand and turn into a helicopter of death. Doesn't matter the cost of the blade. If it's sharp, it can kill or maim.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 9, 2020 3:43:19 GMT
well, I'm a bad example. But for my first cheap katana I ended up taking the silk wrap off the handle, throwing everything else away, and wrapping the silk directly onto the tang. Because the bottom of the blade is too close to my hand by then, I took a hammer and pounded the first inch or so of the blade flat, widening the metal there, and roughing it so that the silk didn't slip, and my hand could go there safely. I mean it's just a cheap katana. If you ask me, you don't lose any value, the whole sword is more stable when you can better grip the blade itself, it looks beautifully apocalyptic, and all it takes is a few seconds when you pick it up to tighten up the wrap to keep the handle nice and tight. The silk is better than parachord, which slips easily. It doesn't shift around if it's tight, and it can't roll because its flat. The tang is a tad bit shorter than with the handle, but not much, and for me, because the handle wasn't very good, my cutting power definitely increased. (you have to be more careful about bending the sword on a bad strike, though) I would have serious considerations of general safety just wrapping the nakago in Ito. If that wrap comes even the slightest bit loose you could have the whole blade go flying out from your hand and turn into a helicopter of death. Doesn't matter the cost of the blade. If it's sharp, it can kill or maim. it's not even possible. The string isn't like that (like some cup or something). you might lose your grip a little bit, but you won't lose the blade out of the string. More realistic is that you get discomfort in your hand and want to let go, or that your hand slips down the blade. (which is why I hammered the blade flat)
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Post by jayotterstein on Apr 9, 2020 13:30:02 GMT
I would have serious considerations of general safety just wrapping the nakago in Ito. If that wrap comes even the slightest bit loose you could have the whole blade go flying out from your hand and turn into a helicopter of death. Doesn't matter the cost of the blade. If it's sharp, it can kill or maim. it's not even possible. The string isn't like that (like some cup or something). you might lose your grip a little bit, but you won't lose the blade out of the string. More realistic is that you get discomfort in your hand and want to let go, or that your hand slips down the blade. (which is why I hammered the blade flat) It's very possible, and extremely dangerous. You can do what you want to your own sword but that's not the type of advice that is safe to give out. A proper tsuka is made to fit the nakago snugly. In the case of many production katana it may have been made with a general channel for the nakago and shims are used to fit it. one or more mekugi pegs are then used to secure the blade to the tsuka, ensuring it does not come flying out. Shinken have one or two mekugi generally, many antiques have a single, and most modern katana produced outside Japan have two. The Ito is secured primarily through two methods, the samegawa providing a "grip" to it holding it in place, along with tight knotting and being tied to the kashira. By wrapping it directly around the nakagao, the ito will eventually wear against the steel, and get loose and you will have a dangerous blade to swing around.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 9, 2020 16:21:12 GMT
it's not even possible. The string isn't like that (like some cup or something). you might lose your grip a little bit, but you won't lose the blade out of the string. More realistic is that you get discomfort in your hand and want to let go, or that your hand slips down the blade. (which is why I hammered the blade flat) It's very possible, and extremely dangerous. You can do what you want to your own sword but that's not the type of advice that is safe to give out. A proper tsuka is made to fit the nakago snugly. In the case of many production katana it may have been made with a general channel for the nakago and shims are used to fit it. one or more mekugi pegs are then used to secure the blade to the tsuka, ensuring it does not come flying out. Shinken have one or two mekugi generally, many antiques have a single, and most modern katana produced outside Japan have two. The Ito is secured primarily through two methods, the samegawa providing a "grip" to it holding it in place, along with tight knotting and being tied to the kashira. By wrapping it directly around the nakagao, the ito will eventually wear against the steel, and get loose and you will have a dangerous blade to swing around. its' not possible. its a string wrapped like 50 times around the tang. the tang is rough and rusty. I can imagine a scenario where a different shape of more finely polished metal could slip out of a wrap made of more rigid material, but the shoelace is so soft and grippy,, at least with my sword, it would not be physically possible to hold the shoelace and lose the sword out of it. the math just doesn't work out. you could lose the whole thing, but you won't still be holding some wrapped up lace while the sword goes flying. It's just not possible. my handle is like 100 times better than the one it came with. (actually, it's still the one it came with, but I changed it). It really could have flown out of the one it came with AND it had bamboo pins.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 9, 2020 16:40:14 GMT
Oh it's absolutely possible, and inevitable. It will happen. There's a reason this is not a historic method of sword construction: it's terrible.
That it's working for you, right now, and you feel confident, that's well and good right now...but eventually it'll wear down.
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