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Post by jayotterstein on Apr 9, 2020 17:00:13 GMT
It's very possible, and extremely dangerous. You can do what you want to your own sword but that's not the type of advice that is safe to give out. A proper tsuka is made to fit the nakago snugly. In the case of many production katana it may have been made with a general channel for the nakago and shims are used to fit it. one or more mekugi pegs are then used to secure the blade to the tsuka, ensuring it does not come flying out. Shinken have one or two mekugi generally, many antiques have a single, and most modern katana produced outside Japan have two. The Ito is secured primarily through two methods, the samegawa providing a "grip" to it holding it in place, along with tight knotting and being tied to the kashira. By wrapping it directly around the nakagao, the ito will eventually wear against the steel, and get loose and you will have a dangerous blade to swing around. its' not possible. its a string wrapped like 50 times around the tang. the tang is rough and rusty. I can imagine a scenario where a different shape of more finely polished metal could slip out of a wrap made of more rigid material, but the shoelace is so soft and grippy,, at least with my sword, it would not be physically possible to hold the shoelace and lose the sword out of it. the math just doesn't work out. you could lose the whole thing, but you won't still be holding some wrapped up lace while the sword goes flying. It's just not possible. my handle is like 100 times better than the one it came with. (actually, it's still the one it came with, but I changed it). It really could have flown out of the one it came with AND it had bamboo pins. It's not a matter of how secure you think it is NOW, it's matter of what will happen to the cord you wrapped around the nakago over time. You said shoelace, which probably means a pretty poor piece of cotton or synthetic fiber. All those rough spots on the nakago are going to catch the fibers and tear and rip them through use. Eventually the overall structure of the "wrap" will degrade and it will fall apart, possibly while you are swinging it. It's a very dangerous method for putting a "grip" on a sword. There is no flare at the bottom of a nakago or integrated pommel as seen many European or Chinese long swords. there is nothing but friction against tiny fibers to hold it in place. The thicker you wrap it, the worse it is. The outside may feel tight, but internally, it going to weaken and that blade is going to come out. And you will likely have no idea when that will happen.
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Post by MOK on Apr 9, 2020 21:17:53 GMT
Yeah, there's very good reason why even knife grips made of paracord wrapping are usually laced through holes in the blade. Soft fabric will inevitably wear, shift and loosen over time.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 10, 2020 3:23:48 GMT
Oh it's absolutely possible, and inevitable. It will happen. There's a reason this is not a historic method of sword construction: it's terrible. That it's working for you, right now, and you feel confident, that's well and good right now...but eventually it'll wear down. the string will break. it's not going to stick together as a single wrap while the tang slips out. You can see a picture of it on my tag. it's possible that a different wrap will do as described, where the tang slips out, but the materials will differ. this materials that I have,,, I'm sitting here with them. it's no way, never. it will eventually rip on the rust, and if that happens enough, it will degrade and I will be holding more and more just the tang, but the tang can not possibly slip out of the wrap while the wrap remains in my hand. some things can fall off of some tables, some things just won't unless the whole table knocks over. my table would literally have to fall through the floor. I'm not saying that it's not a valid caution, I'm saying that when a thing is stable, you will know it, and I do. And for someone else,they will be able to try things, like taping or wrapping, or shaping wood, and when they set it up, they will be able to know if it will be stable and what it will take to destabilize it.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 10, 2020 12:38:20 GMT
If you say so. I'll be watching for the big update, myself.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 10, 2020 16:46:48 GMT
If you say so. I'll be watching for the big update, myself. I actually have a cheap zombie sword with exactly the kind of wrap they are talking about. and just last night I got fed up and took it off. the handle was slipping right out of the (factory) parachord wrap. I was having to bunch it up a special way just to swing it, and that would have to change if I wanted to stab or change slash angle. and while I was taking it off I was just thinking about that,, this is what that guy was probably experiencing when he felt a wrap isn't good,, but the handle is slippery and the chord is slippery and it should have been obvious to the maker that it wasn't going to work,,, meanwhile I have a home-made knife with a "parachord" wrap (it's the cheap chord from walmart fishing section that looks like parachord),,, it doesn't have any holes to go through in the knife, the knife isn't contoured, it's flat and straight,,, and somehow it is holding just great. (true, it's frapped, not loosely hooked back and forth). I can hold and pull as hard as I can and it doesn't move. Also, people with plastic or fiberglass scales have good ones and bad ones, and some people have brass handles that are good and bad.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 10, 2020 18:18:31 GMT
A knife generally faces different stresses than a sword, that's why they're built differently. I also have a knife with a cord wrapping, lacquered, tied off in a Turks head, abs if memory serves, tied via several loops through a hole in the end of the tang. For knife purposes, this is adequate. For sword purposes, I would have my doubts.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 11, 2020 3:30:03 GMT
A knife generally faces different stresses than a sword, that's why they're built differently. I also have a knife with a cord wrapping, lacquered, tied off in a Turks head, abs if memory serves, tied via several loops through a hole in the end of the tang. For knife purposes, this is adequate. For sword purposes, I would have my doubts. parachord is different than fake silk chord also. The cotton or silk or whatever it is,, wrap on the katana is very soft and pliant, with high friction. so it mashes and sticks very well. parachord is slippery, because it's to be used like rope. it's not like shoelace, which is meant to stick to itself and the shoe.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 11, 2020 5:54:21 GMT
Except shoelace does neither of those particularly well. Hence you see people, very often, having to tie their shoes.
It's also widely agreed to be a terrible material for sword handles because it's so quick to loosen and fray.
You believe whatever you want to about your stuff, but I'm going to urge everybody else to understand what you're describing is, not just generally but very often a very bad, very unsafe way of doing things. And I've swung my swords by bare nakago, which I'd honestly rate as safer than wrapping cord of any kind directly over the nakago. At least when it's bare it's a direct interface.
Mind you, even when the Japanese, back in the day, tested their swords, it was often a very simplified handle construction which still comprised of wood over the nakago and some wrapping.
But I'm over this. You're convinced, but I'm going to restate for everybody else: What's being suggested is a bad idea.
That said, have we ever decided how to solve the original problem? I'm still voting for wood shims or an extra seppa.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 11, 2020 16:20:32 GMT
Except shoelace does neither of those particularly well. Hence you see people, very often, having to tie their shoes. It's also widely agreed to be a terrible material for sword handles because it's so quick to loosen and fray. You believe whatever you want to about your stuff, but I'm going to urge everybody else to understand what you're describing is, not just generally but very often a very bad, very unsafe way of doing things. And I've swung my swords by bare nakago, which I'd honestly rate as safer than wrapping cord of any kind directly over the nakago. At least when it's bare it's a direct interface. Mind you, even when the Japanese, back in the day, tested their swords, it was often a very simplified handle construction which still comprised of wood over the nakago and some wrapping. But I'm over this. You're convinced, but I'm going to restate for everybody else: What's being suggested is a bad idea. That said, have we ever decided how to solve the original problem? I'm still voting for wood shims or an extra seppa. it's not actually shoelace, it's the silk wrap that comes with the sword, that is normally wrapped around the rayskin. My sword was pretty cheap, so I hesitate to say its silk, I think it's cotton, but it's much softer than usual shoelaces, and wouldn't work to tie things up, but is very good for grip, (it IS the grip that came with the sword).
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Post by paulmuaddib on Apr 11, 2020 17:22:31 GMT
I know this is hopeless from reading your posts, but it is NOT the grip that came with your sword. It is A component of the grip that came with your sword. The grip that came with your sword consists of a wooden handle, mekugi, Fuchi, kashira, the ito and also two parts which are important to the handle fitting right, the tsuba and habaki. I just hope when it fails no one else is around to get hurt. No need to respond if you don’t want to, like I said hopeless.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 11, 2020 21:25:20 GMT
I know this is hopeless from reading your posts, but it is NOT the grip that came with your sword. It is A component of the grip that came with your sword. The grip that came with your sword consists of a wooden handle, mekugi, Fuchi, kashira, the ito and also two parts which are important to the handle fitting right, the tsuba and habaki. I just hope when it fails no one else is around to get hurt. No need to respond if you don’t want to, like I said hopeless. the original handle was on the road to failure. this one is a never fail while its me using it. I agree that someone else using it might not take care of it like I do, and then would fray it more quickly, but what I purchased was much more dangerous to try to use, than what I have now.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 11, 2020 21:44:22 GMT
No. It's not. Please stop arguing ask we can get back on track to the original topic: fixing a loose habaki.
Shims, seppa, JB Weld, and a few other fixes have been suggested; has the OP had any luck with these or anther solution?
Wrapping the nakago directly is dangerous and will fail sooner than even a terrible tsuka. Let's stop trying to tell anybody otherwise.
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Post by Dandelion on Apr 12, 2020 8:01:12 GMT
No. It's not. Please stop arguing ask we can get back on track to the original topic: fixing a loose habaki. Shims, seppa, JB Weld, and a few other fixes have been suggested; has the OP had any luck with these or anther solution? Wrapping the nakago directly is dangerous and will fail sooner than even a terrible tsuka. Let's stop trying to tell anybody otherwise. If i may point at something: while the other know-it-all boy seriously is talking dangerous stuff, there actually are manufacturers who do their grips like that, or at least similar: BKS for example, where the leather is wrapped directly onto the (mostly euro style) many different swords thick and wide tangs - and it works perfectly! Well, they use glue of course.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 12, 2020 13:54:57 GMT
If that style is desired then adhesives may be the answer. I wouldn't trust it alone.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 12, 2020 15:01:03 GMT
Maybe with glue, maybe with stoppers, but I won't advocate it without either. Leather is also different to whatever material he's using.
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Post by jayotterstein on Apr 13, 2020 13:27:02 GMT
No. It's not. Please stop arguing ask we can get back on track to the original topic: fixing a loose habaki. Shims, seppa, JB Weld, and a few other fixes have been suggested; has the OP had any luck with these or anther solution? Wrapping the nakago directly is dangerous and will fail sooner than even a terrible tsuka. Let's stop trying to tell anybody otherwise. If i may point at something: while the other know-it-all boy seriously is talking dangerous stuff, there actually are manufacturers who do their grips like that, or at least similar: BKS for example, where the leather is wrapped directly onto the (mostly euro style) many different swords thick and wide tangs - and it works perfectly! Well, they use glue of course. Many european and chinese style swords have tangs that to not taper down as does on most katana. Some even have flares flatten into pommels. Many of those style swords have stiff leather, cord or wire wraps directly around the tang. The sword was designed and built to wrapped that way, katana are not.
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