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Post by dchisenh on Jan 21, 2019 14:35:08 GMT
Yea sorry man, I see nothing wrong with their responses to you or anything thats actually denying responsibility for the sharpening job. They do deny they have any responsibility for any of the usual sub $300 market quality control issues and even go to explain that such issues as hammer marks and scratching as well as pommels being misaligned or gaurds being slightly loose are not their responsibility. Seems to me you did get hot before you even responded as your first email asks if your review had posted yet. Seems you wanted that negative review on the site, and for what? Obviously to please yourself for being upset. You're whole "get a discount" scheme is where you start loosing all credentials and your emails prove this more. Face it you were more pissedoff over the whole "I want a discount" scheme getting denied than you were the sharpening job. It reads pretty clearly in your Emails. Yea I get you were unsatisfied with the sharpening job as well as the fact you got a few imperfections. Guess what? thats the sub $300 market where quality control tends to slip or sacrifices are made to keep the price points. This forum and site has been around for over 10 years and literally 99% of discussion revolves around what to expect at specific price points. Pretty much don't buy a Windlass expecting a Albion or even dont think a $60 "carbon steel" katana is a $300 Hanwei Katana simply because both have the same tsuba guard and black ito wrap. Sorry man, I know you posted this thread looking for sympathy but really it just shows how wrong you are. The emails didn't help you at all, if anything they've made me less sympathetic for you and more sympathetic for the KoA reps. I mean look at your thread title "good sword bad experience"? Shouldn't it be bad sword too? I mean your pics do show a lot of extra scratches and yea they more than likely came from the sharpening service they offer. Overall with the rest of the issues, again very minor and to be expected in the price point. From between this thread and your emails it seems you're tend to be aggressively irrational and overreaching. Sorry you got so upset over this but seriously was it really worth getting this upset over to post slandering reviews? Maybe this thread and the KoA situation is best to be taking as a learning point for you both in your sword enthusiasm and public behaviors. Just saying. Pretty much my sentiments exactly. I've noticed people have gotten spoiled from Amazon to expect free returns when in reality returning items like swords could erase a small businesses profits in no time. Plus, it seems like from your email you were angling for a discount that KoA clearly states on their website they do not do. I don't know what the review was like, but considering all the reviews KoA allows (even ones that are honestly 'bad' reviews) and your own admissons you were pissed off and used profanity at least on the first one, I can't help but get the impression your review could have been an attempt to 'punish' them. I'm glad you came here to share your experience and provided all the evidence you could, thank you for that. Taking all that into consideration, I'll still be buying from them in the future.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jan 21, 2019 20:19:28 GMT
Okay guys, I'm pretty fed up with the lynch mob forming on this thread.
First off, yeah, he lost his cool and should've been more polite with his correspondence. No question about that, he even admits fault. Moving on.
nddave the thing is that they just botched the sharpening on this sword. Look at the pictures. Tell me they did a good job. Not being rude, just direct, as you are with the OP. Windlass has flaws. I always recommend them with serious caveats, as you do, as most of us do. They have hammer marks and that's no big deal at all, but some of the issues with this sword are just atypically awful for a Windlass. The way the edge waves qualifies as a scratch and dent or munitions grade sword, the specific listing for swords discounted this way on KoA mention these exact characteristics seen on this sword.
@ dchisenh I don't think it has anything to do with being spoiled by free returns as expecting customer service. Everyone recommends KoA because they "take the time to inspect items before they ship" and "have excellent quality control". NONE of that is seen with this sword. KoA messed up, and because everyone recommends them because they inspect their products prior to shipping to screen for defects, the expectation is that is what occurs. That did not happen here, and the fact that their website directly states they inspect items before shipment...I fully understand why the OP is ticked off.
Here's the thing y'all. Windlass makes budget swords. No questions there. People often just recommend them without attaching caveats to the quality you can reasonably expect. People get annoyed because they feel they are mislead. I've seen this time and time again. We all need to do a better job of including the critiques of a product rather than just point blank recommending it. I sure as heck don't expect perfection from any sword, they're hand made, they won't be perfect. But if I received a sword that had the issues the OP photographed (please ignore the emails, since that's what everyone is focusing on) I'd be ticked off.
I've seen everyone critique swords of various make, Darksword, Valiant Armoury, Hanwei, etc., etc. for similar flaws as seen on this sword, how such things are unacceptable on a brand new sword, without being used, on dozens of threads here over the years. Fact of the matter is this is actually a screw job by KoA, an atypical one to be honest, but it is on them. That shipping makes returns prohibitive is a huge pain, but when KoA as a vendor directly solicits quality control, and everyone sings their praises for inspecting swords for issues, this just cements why its absurd that KoA wouldn't at least issue a partial refund or SOMETHING as a workaround. I've gotten better service from Hanbon Swords on Ebay, and you all know how low an opinion I have of them.
So yes, this reaction to the OP is in my view completely absurd. As justified as critiques of his email correspondence is (I mean really, he could have handled that a bit better, as he admitted), I just am stunned how people are just failing to comprehend why the OP is so frustrated with a defective product. Well, with the exception of William Swiger and some others, we seem to be on the same page.
Sorry for my rant, I just became exasperated by the hostility on this thread. Absurdity! Absurdity I say! (Channels Holg powers, turns blue instead of green, gets confused, runs away)
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Post by dchisenh on Jan 21, 2019 20:56:22 GMT
Okay guys, I'm pretty fed up with the lynch mob forming on this thread.
First off, yeah, he lost his cool and should've been more polite with his correspondence. No question about that, he even admits fault. Moving on.
nddave the thing is that they just botched the sharpening on this sword. Look at the pictures. Tell me they did a good job. Not being rude, just direct, as you are with the OP. Windlass has flaws. I always recommend them with serious caveats, as you do, as most of us do. They have hammer marks and that's no big deal at all, but some of the issues with this sword are just atypically awful for a Windlass. The way the edge waves qualifies as a scratch and dent or munitions grade sword, the specific listing for swords discounted this way on KoA mention these exact characteristics seen on this sword.
@ dchisenh I don't think it has anything to do with being spoiled by free returns as expecting customer service. Everyone recommends KoA because they "take the time to inspect items before they ship" and "have excellent quality control". NONE of that is seen with this sword. KoA messed up, and because everyone recommends them because they inspect their products prior to shipping to screen for defects, the expectation is that is what occurs. That did not happen here, and the fact that their website directly states they inspect items before shipment...I fully understand why the OP is ticked off.
Here's the thing y'all. Windlass makes budget swords. No questions there. People often just recommend them without attaching caveats to the quality you can reasonably expect. People get annoyed because they feel they are mislead. I've seen this time and time again. We all need to do a better job of including the critiques of a product rather than just point blank recommending it. I sure as heck don't expect perfection from any sword, they're hand made, they won't be perfect. But if I received a sword that had the issues the OP photographed (please ignore the emails, since that's what everyone is focusing on) I'd be ticked off.
I've seen everyone critique swords of various make, Darksword, Valiant Armoury, Hanwei, etc., etc. for similar flaws as seen on this sword, how such things are unacceptable on a brand new sword, without being used, on dozens of threads here over the years. Fact of the matter is this is actually a screw job by KoA, an atypical one to be honest, but it is on them. That shipping makes returns prohibitive is a huge pain, but when KoA as a vendor directly solicits quality control, and everyone sings their praises for inspecting swords for issues, this just cements why its absurd that KoA wouldn't at least issue a partial refund or SOMETHING as a workaround. I've gotten better service from Hanbon Swords on Ebay, and you all know how low an opinion I have of them.
So yes, this reaction to the OP is in my view completely absurd. As justified as critiques of his email correspondence is (I mean really, he could have handled that a bit better, as he admitted), I just am stunned how people are just failing to comprehend why the OP is so frustrated with a defective product. Well, with the exception of William Swiger and some others, we seem to be on the same page.
Sorry for my rant, I just became exasperated by the hostility on this thread. Absurdity! Absurdity I say! (Channels Holg powers, turns blue instead of green, gets confused, runs away)
Zaba, not sure why you're getting so upset.
1) My Amazon comment was made in general, as an observation of how people have come to expect certain things with regards to returns made popular by one of the most massive mega companies the world has ever seen, that just aren't feasible from smaller businesses.
2) My recommendations of KoA have been made simply by two things: Price and my personal experiences. I never claimed they visually inspect everything they ship out.
I've seen enough dissatisfied online 'hit' pieces over the years that I take them mostly in stride. The OP's post originally sounded like one and given the emails provided and my own experiences with KoA, my opinion is that the OP was offered a refund or exchange based on KoA's well-established policies and instead tried less-than-tactfully to extract a discount from them. When he was rebuffed, he chose to post his experience here. Whether his intentions in doing so was to harm KoA or to educate other sword buyers, I'm not psychic so I'll never know but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt to say it was the latter.
Going forward, OP as well as everyone who reads this should be aware of a company's return policies prior to ordering, that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar when it comes to dealing with customer service, budget items are priced accordingly for a reason and that even a well-respected company can screw up.
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Post by nddave on Jan 21, 2019 21:45:22 GMT
zabazagobo, I too don't get how you're taking anything I said as hostile. I'm literally going by the correspondence of the emails here. He was offered a refund or replacement, refused it asking for another sword at a discount, got denied and as a result went and tried to post another defamatory review. As such I stand behind what I said and feel it has merit to the discussion. The OP claimed bad customer service and rude behavior from the representative. He got neither. What he didn't get is what he wanted and chose to irrationally vent both on their customer reviews and here in this thread. I get the sword was damaged in the sharpening. Though I don't see how that merits a discount on another item. In regards to the whole shipping thing how much is continental shipping really? I've shipped swords for under $20.00 in the few trades I've done here and really paying that isn't much in regards to receiving a replacement.
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Post by ulfmaer on Jan 21, 2019 22:25:09 GMT
I’m not going to say much, as there is no changing some of yall’s minds, and there is no real point in doing so anyways. I’ll say that I agree with zabazagobo and definitely echo his sentiment.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jan 21, 2019 23:28:16 GMT
I can see both sides of the argument - it costs a lot for the company to eat the shipping, but they did screw up on it, so they are responsible for the screw up. In my opinion, they should have at least eaten like half of the shipping. On the other hand, the OP didn't handle it well. But, KoA is a company. I don't think the CS rep handled it well either, I mean I've had around 7 Windlass swords from ACC, MRL, Second Hand, and KoA and none ever had scratches like that, or the weird warped edges, which honestly if I made that screw up I would pick up shipping for the return, which shows up for me at $15.36, times two so $30.72, if a P.O. Box the shipping total comes to $49.20. If KoA can't afford to eat that based on their own mistake, they are dying as a business financially. I say this as someone who has had to spend about 120 dollars out of pocket making returns to KoA for issues that either should have been caught out of the gate or described in the ad copy.
I totally see why, and agree with ulmaer's upset over the ordeal. I would probably be just as upset, and indeed in the returns I've done with other vendors have been very upset as well.
In regards to reviews not being posted - I've written 5 reviews on 4 Windlass and 1 USI sword(s), none were posted. Two of these products I can verified having bought from KOA, the rest from ACC/MRL. Not all were negative either.
It's a messy situation I think, but KoA should have accepted the issues as their fault, and the OP should have treated it like a emotionless business robot (which the CS rep isn't but I'm sure they were worked to the bone over the nearing Christmas order season) and gone for an exchange. That's my opinion, I understand the OP's stance on principle and to an extant I agree with it.
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Post by nddave on Jan 22, 2019 13:21:06 GMT
I’m not going to say much, as there is no changing some of yall’s minds, and there is no real point in doing so anyways. I’ll say that I agree with zabazagobo and definitely echo his sentiment. Well of course you do... Here I'll ask you one more thing and then I'll walk away and call this discussion a loss, Lets say they offered you that discounted new sword like you wanted, would you have been ok with paying the shipping for it?
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Post by dchisenh on Jan 22, 2019 14:59:56 GMT
I can see both sides of the argument - it costs a lot for the company to eat the shipping, but they did screw up on it, so they are responsible for the screw up. In my opinion, they should have at least eaten like half of the shipping. On the other hand, the OP didn't handle it well. But, KoA is a company. I don't think the CS rep handled it well either, I mean I've had around 7 Windlass swords from ACC, MRL, Second Hand, and KoA and none ever had scratches like that, or the weird warped edges, which honestly if I made that screw up I would pick up shipping for the return, which shows up for me at $15.36, times two so $30.72, if a P.O. Box the shipping total comes to $49.20. If KoA can't afford to eat that based on their own mistake, they are dying as a business financially. I say this as someone who has had to spend about 120 dollars out of pocket making returns to KoA for issues that either should have been caught out of the gate or described in the ad copy. I totally see why, and agree with ulmaer's upset over the ordeal. I would probably be just as upset, and indeed in the returns I've done with other vendors have been very upset as well. In regards to reviews not being posted - I've written 5 reviews on 4 Windlass and 1 USI sword(s), none were posted. Two of these products I can verified having bought from KOA, the rest from ACC/MRL. Not all were negative either. It's a messy situation I think, but KoA should have accepted the issues as their fault, and the OP should have treated it like a emotionless business robot (which the CS rep isn't but I'm sure they were worked to the bone over the nearing Christmas order season) and gone for an exchange. That's my opinion, I understand the OP's stance on principle and to an extant I agree with it. Most Windlass swords I've gotten have been good and I haven't received anything as bad as the OP pictured, but I did get a few duds. One of the first swords I bought was a deal of the day from MRL, a Sword of Roven. I loved the way it handled, but in the guard there were visible pieces of unincorporated slag...really looked bad. I had ordered it sharpened, so someone had to have seen it prior to shipping. I called MRL up, explained it, emailed a picture and was promptly given a return label and refund (which their terms say would happen if there was a defect). No problem and case closed. Another item was a sword cane from ACC. I can't remember what that one was called off the top of my head, but the blade was severely stained and rusted, plus the tip was bent. It looked like someone at the warehouse had used it to stab those ever-present hanging pork shoulders they have all over the place and didn't clean it when they sheathed it. As for shipping, it looked ok from the outside so I can see how it made it past the shipping folks. Again, a few pictures, a polite phone call and it was on it's way back to them via return label and a refund was in my account, as per their policy. This was an Arbedo, if I remember correctly a recently commissioned small batch for KoA. There's always the possibility one or two may have had a few wayward hammer marks or unevenness in the blade that could have been accentuated with a poor sharpening job, since this wasn't a run-of-the-mill sword for Windlass. That said, I think it was a mistake for KoA to ship it like that. If at the moment he received the sword, the OP took pictures and expressed his dissatisfaction with KoA over it, without angling for a discount or posting a profanity-containing review, my experience with KoA leads me to suspect he'd likely have had a smoother interaction and probably gotten a return label from them for a refund or exchange. I have NO idea if that would have happened, it's just my guess based on my past experiences with KoA. To me, the condition of the sword could have either been due to Windlass or KoA or both, there's no real way of knowing, but I don't think KoA should have shipped it out that way. I think the OP didn't handle the situation well, was angling for too much and caused KoA to fall back on their default written rules and policy. Even then the OP has a remedy to get a refund or replacement, which is why at the end of the day I don't fault KoA. Again, like I said previously, I have had great experiences with KoA and will continue to in the future. This one post, where the OP just stated his goal for the original post here is to change our minds about KoA, isn't going to change that for me.
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Jan 22, 2019 18:47:19 GMT
Again, like I said previously, I have had great experiences with KoA and will continue to in the future. This one post, where the OP just stated his goal for the original post here is to change our minds about KoA, isn't going to change that for me. If Ulfmaer’s objective was to stir up trouble, very possible, he failed in my case. He was off base in his dealings and I have nothing but good feelings regarding my dealings with KoA in the past and am optimistic in future dealings.
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Post by ulfmaer on Jan 22, 2019 18:47:55 GMT
dchisenh where did I ever state my intention to change your opinions on anything?? Or to get people to stop buying from KoA?? I even EXPLICITLY stated that, this was NOT my intention...
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Post by theophilus736 on Jan 22, 2019 19:46:33 GMT
The sword was garbage as it arrived from KOA but you agreed to their terms of service. Replacing it with no additional shipping charge would be the nice thing to do since they shipped it messed it up. The others saying it isnt fair the company that screwed it up should lose most of their profit on shipping have a messed up concept of justice. That being said, it was in their terms and you agreed to it. Nothing wrong with them denying your offer for a discounted sword as it wasnt an equitable exchange. Just return the sword and pay the shipping, otherwise nothing to do but move on.
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Post by dchisenh on Jan 22, 2019 20:28:31 GMT
I’m not going to say much, as there is no changing some of yall’s minds, and there is no real point in doing so anyways. I’ll say that I agree with zabazagobo and definitely echo his sentiment. Seems pretty clear to me.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,631
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jan 22, 2019 20:31:20 GMT
Caveat emptor
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Jan 22, 2019 22:46:26 GMT
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Post by ulfmaer on Jan 23, 2019 1:52:31 GMT
dchisenh you literally bolded only one part of that sentence when literally right after that part I state the opposite of what you’re claiming I said! Also you’re taking it out of context as well, as what I was referring to was y’all opinion on if I was in the right or wrong! I genuinely could care less where you spend your own money!
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Post by Wes Cameron on Jan 23, 2019 1:52:35 GMT
Okay guys, I'm pretty fed up with the lynch mob forming on this thread.
First off, yeah, he lost his cool and should've been more polite with his correspondence. No question about that, he even admits fault. Moving on.
nddave the thing is that they just botched the sharpening on this sword. Look at the pictures. Tell me they did a good job. Not being rude, just direct, as you are with the OP. Windlass has flaws. I always recommend them with serious caveats, as you do, as most of us do. They have hammer marks and that's no big deal at all, but some of the issues with this sword are just atypically awful for a Windlass. The way the edge waves qualifies as a scratch and dent or munitions grade sword, the specific listing for swords discounted this way on KoA mention these exact characteristics seen on this sword.
@ dchisenh I don't think it has anything to do with being spoiled by free returns as expecting customer service. Everyone recommends KoA because they "take the time to inspect items before they ship" and "have excellent quality control". NONE of that is seen with this sword. KoA messed up, and because everyone recommends them because they inspect their products prior to shipping to screen for defects, the expectation is that is what occurs. That did not happen here, and the fact that their website directly states they inspect items before shipment...I fully understand why the OP is ticked off.
Here's the thing y'all. Windlass makes budget swords. No questions there. People often just recommend them without attaching caveats to the quality you can reasonably expect. People get annoyed because they feel they are mislead. I've seen this time and time again. We all need to do a better job of including the critiques of a product rather than just point blank recommending it. I sure as heck don't expect perfection from any sword, they're hand made, they won't be perfect. But if I received a sword that had the issues the OP photographed (please ignore the emails, since that's what everyone is focusing on) I'd be ticked off.
I've seen everyone critique swords of various make, Darksword, Valiant Armoury, Hanwei, etc., etc. for similar flaws as seen on this sword, how such things are unacceptable on a brand new sword, without being used, on dozens of threads here over the years. Fact of the matter is this is actually a screw job by KoA, an atypical one to be honest, but it is on them. That shipping makes returns prohibitive is a huge pain, but when KoA as a vendor directly solicits quality control, and everyone sings their praises for inspecting swords for issues, this just cements why its absurd that KoA wouldn't at least issue a partial refund or SOMETHING as a workaround. I've gotten better service from Hanbon Swords on Ebay, and you all know how low an opinion I have of them.
So yes, this reaction to the OP is in my view completely absurd. As justified as critiques of his email correspondence is (I mean really, he could have handled that a bit better, as he admitted), I just am stunned how people are just failing to comprehend why the OP is so frustrated with a defective product. Well, with the exception of William Swiger and some others, we seem to be on the same page.
Sorry for my rant, I just became exasperated by the hostility on this thread. Absurdity! Absurdity I say! (Channels Holg powers, turns blue instead of green, gets confused, runs away)
I’m with you on this. The OP should not be being ganged up on. He had/has valid complaints. There are a few on this forum who like to gang up on someone who has an opinion and view point that differs from theirs. Then there a couple who go bipolar in that they first agree but then take great exception if a section of a complaint does not fit their view. There are some who will pull the holier than thou route or that you should be chivalrous which is nonsense – it’s a business transaction. There are a few on here that do not like to hear anything negative about a sword vendor/manufacturer especially if they like them. Then there are some who are scared to post anything negative but will send you a supportive PM. I guess he is in fear of being ganged up on, but that’s cowardice in my books. I think the OP has very valid complaints and dealt with it appropriately (minus any swearing, but that’s just me), and I think having to pay shipping back is unfair to the customer regardless of it being their 'policy'. But, more than one person has had experience with KOA having very dubious shipping charges. They wanted to charge me 2.5 times what the shipping cost should have been on a sword I wanted. Then while discussing it with them and them wanting me to jump through hoops, the sword all of a sudden was sold and it was the last one, so I was out of a sword, but it was lucky for me. I put an order in with the KnifeCenter and was put on a waiting list for when the sword came in as it was delayed by the manufacturer who only puts out a limited number a year. I was and am 100% satisfied with this vendor, my experience with them demonstrated that they cared, acted like professionals and went out of their way to please the customer. I asked them to check the sword for manufacturing defects prior to sending, and although that is not a regular thing they do, they did it for me and said they would do it for any customer who asked. And no, I am in no way affiliated with them. The OP is not the first one to be displeased with KOA, but by the same token some others have been pleased. That said, the hallmark of a good business is not to have such polar opposite reviews, but rather a far greater percentage of good reviews with the few negative reviews not being so highly negative as a number of them have been regarding KOA. Based on my experience and other’s experience with KOA, I will never consider dealing with them.
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Post by ulfmaer on Jan 23, 2019 1:55:41 GMT
I don’t believe that’s applicable here as I know of the short comings of windlass products, and had no real qualms with those aspects. Also since the purchase is made online there is a level of “trust”, if you will, that they’re not going to send me something in that poor of a condition since I can’t examine it for myself.
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Post by Wes Cameron on Jan 23, 2019 2:05:40 GMT
I don’t believe that’s applicable here as I know of the short comings of windlass products, and had no real qualms with those aspects. Also since the purchase is made online there is a level of “trust”, if you will, that they’re not going to send me something in that poor of a condition since I can’t examine it for myself. Right. Caveat emptor is just a legalized way for a company to say it`s okay to have bad business practices. It is easily defeated in Court a lot of the time.
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Post by ulfmaer on Jan 23, 2019 2:07:51 GMT
My intention was only to share my experiences, and open up a dialogue as I wasn’t able to do so with my reviews. I genuinely believed the forums here were above mob mentality/witch hunts and that’s why I felt comfortable making this post in the first place. It seems I was definitely wrong, but there are a few of y’all that are helping me to keep faith lol like zabazagobo and Wes Cameron and even those that disagree with, but are doing so in a civil manner.
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Post by ulfmaer on Jan 23, 2019 2:08:37 GMT
I don’t believe that’s applicable here as I know of the short comings of windlass products, and had no real qualms with those aspects. Also since the purchase is made online there is a level of “trust”, if you will, that they’re not going to send me something in that poor of a condition since I can’t examine it for myself. Right. Caveat emptor is just a legalized way for a company to say it`s okay to have bad business practices. It is easily defeated in Court a lot of the time. Ah, ok, gotcha
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