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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 24, 2018 13:07:13 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2018 15:07:08 GMT
That looks like a monster. Sorry for your disappointment. I recently received two sabres, about a month apart. One, the expensive one, I’m disappointed with but see why it’s popular. The cheaper one is the fun one.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 24, 2018 15:39:09 GMT
That looks like a monster. Sorry for your disappointment. I recently received two sabres, about a month apart. One, the expensive one, I’m disappointed with but see why it’s popular. The cheaper one is the fun one. What were you disappoint with your sabre about? Mind to share?
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pgandy
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Senior Forumite
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Post by pgandy on Dec 24, 2018 19:07:41 GMT
Excuse the rambling. The disappointment was with Universal’s Princess of Wales. I had read many good things about the sword and I realized these reports were coming from collectors that weren’t cutting with it. During Black Friday’s sales I bought one as they are often out of stock and although I had reservations about its cutting ability and I wanted to get the Princess out of my system. When I first touched it I said WOW! I don’t know how to describe it but it just felt “right”. And like my other Universal sword most pleasing to the eye. When I started dry handling it was my first problem as I lacked control. I finally solved this by wearing leather gloves, and have passed several enjoyable hours just going through drills with it. The proximal end of the grip is too small for my hand. It’s beautiful, a real eye pleaser that feels like a sabre should. My concern now is the soft EN9 metal it’s made with. I had planned to sharpen it before now but have put that on hold. My other Universal sword is made of the same metal and I’ve had a problem keeping a sharp edge on it. The final straw with that one was one afternoon recently I didn’t have anything better to do so I introduced it to the Work Sharp. In the past I had hand sharpened it. I put a sharp 25° edge on it, finishing by adding 2° more for a couple of passes and then stropped. The other day I took it down for a thrusting test. I get more accuracy out of that spadroon than my rapier, and it will penetrate targets that the rapier and Agincourt will not. The targets were a litre and half litre plastic Listerine bottles. The plastic in these are tougher than the usual plastic. The sword failed on the 500 ml bottle sending it flying as there wasn’t enough weight to hold it in place. The blade drove straight through the litre bottle effortlessly both times at which point I stopped and went inside to examine the blade. It failed to cut paper, the nail test, and no longer felt sharp, all of which it would do before. I then examined by eye and feel and found no rolls, dings, etc. But as I rolled the blade back and forth in the light a bright silver streak showed up on the edge. Farther back on the blade where it had not passed through the plastic still cut paper. With the metal that soft I am discouraged from sharpening. I think I’ll just make a wall hanger of both and admire with an occasional dry handling. On the other hand, the $90 Windlass Model 1860 Union Cavalry Officer Saber that I ordered about a month before feels rather toyish like, not something that I’d care to carry into battle is working out fine. The statistics between the two are closer to each other than they are to KoA’s listed statistics. Both have equal length stiff blades. The Princess’ PoB at 6½” is only1/8” shorter than the M1860 and an ounce more. I had a control problem with that one also at first but wrapped tape around the grip giving a slight palm swell on the dorsal side and a larger one on the ventral which with a larger grip cured the problem. I sharpened from the etching to the point giving the shaving sharp edge an apple seed shape. I’ve had about a half dozen cutting sessions with it and countless draws and returns to the steel scabbard and it will still shave. That exceeded any expectation that I had. I do place a stripe of tape over the edge when returning the sword which I do with the upmost care as on drawing. It is an excellent cutter and although it lacks the “feel” of the Princess, as far as handling goes it handles almost as well, the Princess has only the slightest edge over that M1860. I don’t think that I’d notice that if I didn’t compare them side by side. The Princess is a beauty. I’m setting admiring it. I do believe if I wasn’t a commoner that I’d marry her. Hehe And in a way the Princess reminds me of some women I’ve known; beautiful to look at, a delight to touch and hold, but when it comes down to the knitty gritty of it they are lacking. I hope that I am not being too hard on the sword but it takes a while to sharpen especially from scratch to get a good edge that won’t hold up as the spadroon is showing is not worth the effort.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 25, 2018 6:39:10 GMT
thanks for the share. i feel for u on those good handling soft swords. listerine bottles are hard and i dun find it surprising that it dull soft steel edge.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Dec 25, 2018 8:05:22 GMT
Your order was a tall one to fill, but it's a bummer they couldn't pull it totally off. It would have been pretty incredible if they had. Thanks for sharing this, Lancelot.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 25, 2018 9:20:37 GMT
Your order was a tall one to fill, but it's a bummer they couldn't pull it totally off. It would have been pretty incredible if they had. Thanks for sharing this, Lancelot. Indeed. Turned out they measured the thickness in the spine instead of in the thickest part of the blade, which is the shinoji. I ordered the sword 3 months ago before I had learned that I was forced to move. This sword has since then served as my motivation to encourage myself through the ordeal of forced move. End up being a major let down, now I got no motivation to go on. LOL.... not joking.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 25, 2018 10:22:24 GMT
This is the email I wrote to them after the test cut:
I've just test cut and of course it didn't go well. However the edge retention is highly impressive, comparable to the top swords out there. In addition, I sharpened it to my extreme sharpness, finished the apex at 3 micron. The status of the edge after the test cut is better than other lung chuan swords I've tested, and better than your own qijian even. Thus it means you have the potential to make the top swords, lacking only geometry control. This is a shame for I wish I can have one that will cut and fight good.
Somehow my cam was tuned to manual focus and thus the whole video is out focused. Yet you can still see what happened generally and I'm surprised to see that the edge held up completely even at my Lancelot-sharp level!
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Dec 25, 2018 16:09:13 GMT
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Post by Robert in California on Jan 1, 2019 4:11:07 GMT
Hi LC, Sorry you were disappointed. Yesterday I was cutting plastic bottles (water filled)..a lot of them. With a JKoo 1095 sughua hamon, 29 inch, single bohi katana. It was a bit of a test for bad cutting technique...since most of my cuts were bad. Edge stayed sharp and blade not bent....not tough material, but my cuts reflected my lack of practice. Several water bottles were batted across the yard, uncut, my technique was that bad. The JKoo katana held up well to the abuse. At least I received the coveted "You Really Suck With A Sword" award. Dessert that night was raspberries. RinC
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 1, 2019 5:23:29 GMT
Hi LC, Sorry you were disappointed. Yesterday I was cutting plastic bottles (water filled)..a lot of them. With a JKoo 1095 sughua hamon, 29 inch, single bohi katana. It was a bit of a test for bad cutting technique...since most of my cuts were bad. Edge stayed sharp and blade not bent....not tough material, but my cuts reflected my lack of practice. Several water bottles were batted across the yard, uncut, my technique was that bad. The JKoo katana held up well to the abuse. At least I received the coveted "You Really Suck With A Sword" award. Dessert that night was raspberries. RinC Here're my bottles cuts.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 7:15:19 GMT
Here is the update. Since their mastery on 9260 has much potential, i have ordered a 2.0 version of my nodachi to have it made much lighter. They offered me half price discount in the 2.0 one. I will keep you informed of the result.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jan 22, 2019 7:45:54 GMT
Sharpening are you talking about edge honing or did you reshape the whole flat below the shinogi? I only ask because yards ago you had your Albion then you had sword made and you could not cut plastic bottles even with it after touching up the edge. And I believe you sold it. This was about '06 right? Was it an A trim?
I only ask because I had 3 blades made by Sino but folded T10 to their hand polish on 2 of them and not an extreme sharpness but cut 7\8 poplar dowels and New and Used Japanese tatami. So im wondering if other factors from designs to human error are not also to blame. At the end of the day 3 times they came very close to my exact speck. If the heat treatment held up and the sharpness is at a high level I have to wonder is it you just not being comfortable enough with the blade?
The target itself seems not that solid as far as the stand and it looks more like you just cant move the blade with the confidence you do others. The failed cuts look like a wack and not a cut.
Some things just dont add up for me here.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 8:20:07 GMT
Sharpening are you talking about edge honing or did you reshape the whole flat below the shinogi? I only ask because yards ago you had your Albion then you had sword made and you could not cut plastic bottles even with it after touching up the edge. And I believe you sold it. This was about '06 right? Was it an A trim? I only ask because I had 3 blades made by Sino but folded T10 to their hand polish on 2 of them and not an extreme sharpness but cut 7\8 poplar dowels and New and Used Japanese tatami. So im wondering if other factors from designs to human error are not also to blame. At the end of the day 3 times they came very close to my exact speck. If the heat treatment held up and the sharpness is at a high level I have to wonder is it you just not being comfortable enough with the blade? The target itself seems not that solid as far as the stand and it looks more like you just cant move the blade with the confidence you do others. The failed cuts look like a wack and not a cut. Some things just dont add up for me here. I think you need to see my more recent test cut instead of doubting my ability basing on a 2006 test cut. :) Just because I am disappointed with your favorite brand due to their measurement misunderstanding caused you to look at me like that? I sharpen with various methods. Sometimes I mod the whole edge plane like from shinoji, sometimes I just hone the apex. It depends on whether I'm happy with the original geometry. If I'm, I just hone the apex. Otherwise, if the sword is worth the effort, I mod the geometry. In the nodachi's case, I sharpened around 3mm from apex to make sure it's at my desired edge angle. It just came too thick, since their measurement of thickness is not on the same spot as I did. Too slow to do any good cutting. Here's a gif of me cutting with a big sword, Longship Giant Silvia, on a resilient target, with 13 chopsticks core, fabric and plastic bag covers as clothing and skin. This is what a good sword with proper sharpening should do.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 8:24:37 GMT
In this case, both targets were PPR pipe cored, and were not even fixed on the stand.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 8:27:54 GMT
And in case you wanna look at tatami cutting, this is done with only single leg standing.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 8:34:27 GMT
And in case you doubt my sharpening, this is what I did on a 52" miaodao for my friend. Free standing paper.
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Post by Richard Arias on Jan 22, 2019 11:27:25 GMT
Sharpening are you talking about edge honing or did you reshape the whole flat below the shinogi? I only ask because yards ago you had your Albion then you had sword made and you could not cut plastic bottles even with it after touching up the edge. And I believe you sold it. This was about '06 right? Was it an A trim? I only ask because I had 3 blades made by Sino but folded T10 to their hand polish on 2 of them and not an extreme sharpness but cut 7\8 poplar dowels and New and Used Japanese tatami. So im wondering if other factors from designs to human error are not also to blame. At the end of the day 3 times they came very close to my exact speck. If the heat treatment held up and the sharpness is at a high level I have to wonder is it you just not being comfortable enough with the blade? The target itself seems not that solid as far as the stand and it looks more like you just cant move the blade with the confidence you do others. The failed cuts look like a wack and not a cut. Some things just dont add up for me here. I think you need to see my more recent test cut instead of doubting my ability basing on a 2006 test cut. :) Just because I am disappointed with your favorite brand due to their measurement misunderstanding caused you to look at me like that? I sharpen with various methods. Sometimes I mod the whole edge plane like from shinoji, sometimes I just hone the apex. It depends on whether I'm happy with the original geometry. If I'm, I just hone the apex. Otherwise, if the sword is worth the effort, I mod the geometry. In the nodachi's case, I sharpened around 3mm from apex to make sure it's at my desired edge angle. It just came too thick, since their measurement of thickness is not on the same spot as I did. Too slow to do any good cutting. Here's a gif of me cutting with a big sword, Longship Giant Silvia, on a resilient target, with 13 chopsticks core, fabric and plastic bag covers as clothing and skin. This is what a good sword with proper sharpening should do. Well that's kinda my point. The 9260 you designed is this big unwieldy blade that literally is their base blade level. So knowing things you have done before I am confused because if the heat treatment held and its plenty sharp the sword should have cut well. At least enough to cut some newspapers and chopsticks.... Even a basic 9260 shinogi zukiri sharpened to a decent edge should have cut that target. But you maybe took that as me attacking you?.... Sorry? Any target can change in difficulty depending on how tight it is rolled, how long it soaked and how solid the cutting mount is. So cutting a new Tatami rolled lightly and soaked 24+ hours isn't near as hard as cutting a very tightly rolled one soaked 6 hours or even 12. A 6 hour warm water soak is popular among the old school Shinkendo crowd. And the mugen dachi stuff from china isn't the same difficulty as used tatami of varied grades from Japan. The infamous used checkerboard tatami being the hardest to cut for most swordsman. The type of target your cutting is to inconsistent for me to really gague difficulty because the target didnt look over soaked but I have no clue as to the density or abrasive quality of the paper. Also the consistency of the roll tightness ex. In your Sino cut video the stand does not look to solid so I wonder if that is a major factor. But also looking at these other videos as I said before you dont look as confident in the sword you even say so in your video. But your arc and trajectory cutting with this blade is different than your other videos and your confidence wasnt high because of your minor disappointment with the blade before cutting. I think this combined with possible target inconsistencies is what lead to failure. And I am still not clear what the current state of this swords geometry is. Can you post some good pics of the edge, flats and a printer paper sharpness test? Think of it like driving someone else's car that your not used to. When you get out your usually staying "that was weird I didnt like that". But if you spend a few months driving it regularly those issues might go away. My issue is rather than be more objective view it seemed like you were quick to blame the forge when it was your specification, your target, your sharpening and your lack of initial confidence. Sinos are far from my favorite swords. If I had to pick a favorite sword it would be the old Gen Hanwei Forge Shinkendo Kotetsu. But Sino is currently the only forge I would recomend to have a decent blade made to a budget custom speck and be built upon. My last Custom from them I am literally spending about $700 to have it "fixed" to my picky standard's. That's almost double of what I paid for the sword. But I would rather pay $1300 to have a customized Sino that was worked on by a custom shop I trust vs paying that for a Stock Blade hoping it comes out right.... Crazy? Kinda... But it works for me 😉 Looking at your specks you have a sword that is thick.... Wide... Has no width taper... Is Very forward Balanced and is almost twice the size and weight of most average Japanese style blades. To me it's built more like something out of a movie or anime than something I expect to function on the same level as something built to cut to a standard like say a Hanwei XL geometry katana. The forge was measuring from the spine as is the standard and this was a miscommunication but that isn't their fault if you didn't specify from Shinogi thickness. But more over it might have come out better if it were a T10 with a hamon. If it had a higher grade polish and if more time were taken to make sure that key details were clear the sword may have performed better. In my emails with sino there are over 40 and each things are explained with graphs and pictures. But my mind cant get past the fact that your blade is BIG more akin to an ax or big spear than a Japanese sword. The balance point alone is almost double forward balance of a Hanwei wind and thunder and its about 2lbs heavier... That's a whole sword heavier than an already big sword for most people. Honesty that sword looks cool but its to much sword for the majority of swordsman to use with any kind of high class standard IMO. And it seems you might just have to train and work at using this oddball sword. You even said its the biggest blade you ever specked. I think it just caught you off guard. My personal heavy Sino hira cutter is a 90 cm total length with a 65cm blade that is 1.2kg... And that is a heavy sword by normal high class Iai Batto Do standard. I can use it but it puts me to the limit with a 90 minute class doing about 200 swings and general handling. Your sword is roughly double and for that double I would maybe be able to get 30 tatami cuts before fatigue set in. And I lift weights regularly. And as good as you are its just to much sword. It shows in the videos.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 12:45:04 GMT
All the longship swords i used in the above did not have width taper at all and were over 4 lbs. still they worked like charm due to good distal taper and weight distribution. the only thing that hindered the nodachi was its slowness caused by being too thick, way thicker than my spec. had required. i didn't design it to be that forward heavy. they took my measurement wrong.
the tatami i cut was the used one from japan since i was cutting at a local toyama ryu dojo. they do not use the chinese mats. they host the annual competition here so the same grade of japanese mats plus usually under soaked, soaking only 2 to 4 hrs.
i dunno if u have ever used swords that were too slow to cut. u dun sound like u did anyway, thus lacking the understanding of the mechanism. as i said i didn't design it as 5.25 lbs 11.25 pob sword to begin with.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jan 22, 2019 13:27:01 GMT
Cutting tatami doesn't take much velocity. Sharpness will do. So does bottles. I sliced bottles with this sword as shown in the above video. However, being very sharp and good heat treat doesn't mean it will cut everything just fine as you assumed. Cutting newspapers roll with hard core is TOTALLY different thing. It takes velocity, thus lots of power to do. I knew beforehand this sword is not fast enough. Not that I'm lack of confidence, just that I've tested and reviewed swords enough to know. I'd been a sword tester for several sword smiths. This is me cutting triple roll of japanese tatami, under soaked, with a 4.75 lbs 7.5" POB sword. Notice how slow I was going at it and still managed that. Will I be able to cut newspapers rolls with hard core like this? Never. Tatami is easy for me. So easy that I can do the following cut.
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