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Post by howler on Sept 12, 2018 4:02:12 GMT
I think maybe katana, unless the katana welder is so foreign to parrying thrusts that the smallsworder could thrust in, come out, feint, thrust in, and just try to avoid the edge of the katana. Actually I think they're about even. So 50/50 chance to either. A strange and difficult matchup for sure. Maybe expert vs expert (with quality weapons) the smallsword. Average or below, katana all day long. Hard to suppress the human fear of getting disfiguring cuts. Even using crappy weapons like court/dress I'd go kat unless katana was so non tempered, stainless, poorly assembled, mall ninja junk that it almost fell apart on sight.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Sept 12, 2018 4:53:06 GMT
I think maybe katana, unless the katana welder is so foreign to parrying thrusts that the smallsworder could thrust in, come out, feint, thrust in, and just try to avoid the edge of the katana. Actually I think they're about even. So 50/50 chance to either. A strange and difficult matchup for sure. Maybe expert vs expert (with quality weapons) the smallsword. Average or below, katana all day long. Hard to suppress the human fear of getting disfiguring cuts. Even using crappy weapons like court/dress I'd go kat unless katana was so non tempered, stainless, poorly assembled, mall ninja junk that it almost fell apart on sight. Id agree with that. If a leyman had to reach their hand into a bucket and use the first sword they grabbed, a katana would be far more intuitive than a small sword. I think the smallsword can surpass the katana provided that users are both high skill, but certainly not low.
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 12, 2018 7:48:39 GMT
One of the difficulties with modeling fights involving a katana and something else is that the katana, when properly used, isn't used intuitively at all, but in a very artificial manner. It takes a lot of instruction and practice to get it right with a katana, but once that level is reached, it's a devastating weapon when employed with a style appropriate to it. And no, learning to use it to cut effectively (proper angle w/respect to target, proper circularity of swing, sides of weapon parallel to swing, proper distance to ensure that only the last third of the blade ["monouchi"] is what slices across the target, proper grip, and the speed to be used), and learning a particular style of employment are two separate areas of training. It's very much a specialist weapon.
Assuming it's just a funny looking saber or shamshir has damaged a lot of katana blades and injured many a user.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 12, 2018 15:23:17 GMT
I mean, I think the katana is still more intuitive to use. Anyone can swing a two handed sword and still move around fairly easily but it takes a decent bit of training to thrust and recover while parroting or to cover your opponents blade and then know the correct reaction when they move forwards or backwards. You also can't panic hit with it, which you can do with a katana.
Also, I have 0 katana training but am able to get good cuts with techniques with the katanas I've owned. Even before I trained in hema. Just baseball bat swing away without twisting your upper half the that target is ded.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Sept 12, 2018 15:41:33 GMT
I mean, I think the katana is still more intuitive to use. Anyone can swing a two handed sword and still move around fairly easily but it takes a decent bit of training to thrust and recover while parroting or to cover your opponents blade and then know the correct reaction when they move forwards or backwards. You also can't panic hit with it, which you can do with a katana. Also, I have 0 katana training but am able to get good cuts with techniques with the katanas I've owned. Even before I trained in hema. Just baseball bat swing away without twisting your upper half the that target is ded. This. Obviously you can cut better if you're trained with it, but that's true for every sword. I don't like it when the katana gets put in a class of it's own as if it's uncomparable to anything else. I don't think that's the case for any sword.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 12, 2018 15:44:20 GMT
In the OP's hypothetical, how familiar are the combatants with their opponents's weapons and style of combat? Preparedness and tactical familiarity would play a potentially huge role in a scenario like this, and I can easily see most cases of the combatants being completely unfamiliar with the other's weapon-use ending in a double kill.
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 12, 2018 17:52:04 GMT
In the OP's hypothetical, how familiar are the combatants with their opponents's weapons and style of combat? Preparedness and tactical familiarity would play a potentially huge role in a scenario like this, and I can easily see most cases of the combatants being completely unfamiliar with the other's weapon-use ending in a double kill. Yup. That's not an improbable denouement of a contest like this. I'd expect the smallsword artist would be using technique as reflected in the French writers, while the samurai would most likely be using a mixture of one of the Hayashizaki-derived iaido styles with a Shinkage-ryu derived style of kenjutsu. To begin with, the combatants would be well-separated with the smallsword-guy en garde in some way, and the samurai standing there like a relaxed fireplug with his swords sheathed. I figure the European would eventually lunge (it's hard to beat or bind if the other guy won't draw), at which point the samurai would nukitsuke across the line of attack before he's touched, most likely aimed at the other guy's arm, with the intent to furikaburi into hasso no kamae via an umbrella block and come down in kesagiri. What's going to happen instead is that both parties nail each other somewhere painful and bloody, but inconsequential (because contact between their weapons ruins their mutual aim), and the fencer's going to try to back up and reinitiate, while the samurai either tries (depending on school) to close to grapple and disarm, or steps to the side to get room for a kesagiri, both as they've been taught. At that point, you have an unpredictable furball going, and they probably both croak eventually.
If, on the other hand, worst case, the smallsworder has read too much Hope (or whatever), and the samurai's background is one of the bide-your-time-then-go-berserk ryu like Jigen, the smallsworder will assume the proper attitude to engage, while the samurai runs in from 20 feet distance, continuously screaming a "Rebel yell", and begins accurately slicing at his target at 120 rpm from tombo-no-kamae once he's four feet away. He's maybe going to get stuck someplace, but not before there are chunks of gentleman duellist all over the place.
Edit==> BTW, my comments above are only based on common and basic tactics which are widely practiced and considered honorable. If the samurai uses some of the more difficult (or low and cunning) moves, or the fencer throws the book (and European duelling norms) away, all bets are off. For instance, at least one very old and well-respected kenjutsu ryu has a kata where you practice getting behind your opponent and cutting his hamstrings, and the smallsworder could (particularly if he's a pirate) use some street fighting moves for the icepick which have all the elegance of a gang shanking.
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 13, 2018 18:31:10 GMT
It'd be interesting to see how that match would play out, since I'm not sure the same tactics applicable to katana would work with a strict single handed blade like the sidesword. I wonder if the smallsword would then have the upper hand thanks to that speed advantage, since biting into the blade and pinning it would be much more tricky with only a single hand. Interesting thoughts to ponder.
As for katana, they're not necessarily a two handed weapon. They work just fine in a single hand, although they need a companion blade to shine when used such a way. Maybe sabre v. smallsword would be a more common contest.
Now on the idea of two handed matchups, an estoc v. katana would be a fun comparison as well. Ah, tangents, fun times.
I hear ya on smallsword, and agree/think that katana can/is used with one hand but is primarily a two hander. Your (if I recall) the duel wielding katana cat (a good nickname, but maybe to long...so how about 2 Kat Cat), but if I wanted to duel wield primarily cutting blades, it would be double Waki. Man, if you miss a swing or get deflected...off goes your kneecap. For me it's the reverse, dual wakizashi make me nervous about slip-ups because the blades are so much shorter. With katanas, I've found that you can effectively 'knock' the mune with either the other blade or your limbs and shoulders depending on context; whereas with wakizashi this would lead to a punctured limb since they don't extend far enough. Although I'm also not all that experienced with wakizashi, so I'm still wrapping my head around them, especially in pairs.
(2 katz sounds like a rapper's name when you shorten it haha)
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Post by howler on Sept 13, 2018 19:09:19 GMT
I hear ya on smallsword, and agree/think that katana can/is used with one hand but is primarily a two hander. Your (if I recall) the duel wielding katana cat (a good nickname, but maybe to long...so how about 2 Kat Cat), but if I wanted to duel wield primarily cutting blades, it would be double Waki. Man, if you miss a swing or get deflected...off goes your kneecap. For me it's the reverse, dual wakizashi make me nervous about slip-ups because the blades are so much shorter. With katanas, I've found that you can effectively 'knock' the mune with either the other blade or your limbs and shoulders depending on context; whereas with wakizashi this would lead to a punctured limb since they don't extend far enough. Although I'm also not all that experienced with wakizashi, so I'm still wrapping my head around them, especially in pairs.
(2 katz sounds like a rapper's name when you shorten it haha)
Good point (pun intended) on the shortened Wak length being a danger. "Yo, yo 2 Katz, what ya think about"...your right, to rappy (2pac, 2 Live Crew, 2 Legit 2 Quit).
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 13, 2018 20:18:47 GMT
I hear ya on smallsword, and agree/think that katana can/is used with one hand but is primarily a two hander. Your (if I recall) the duel wielding katana cat (a good nickname, but maybe to long...so how about 2 Kat Cat), but if I wanted to duel wield primarily cutting blades, it would be double Waki. Man, if you miss a swing or get deflected...off goes your kneecap. For me it's the reverse, dual wakizashi make me nervous about slip-ups because the blades are so much shorter. With katanas, I've found that you can effectively 'knock' the mune with either the other blade or your limbs and shoulders depending on context; whereas with wakizashi this would lead to a punctured limb since they don't extend far enough. Although I'm also not all that experienced with wakizashi, so I'm still wrapping my head around them, especially in pairs.
(2 katz sounds like a rapper's name when you shorten it haha)
Protecting your knees and other appurtenances below your waist requires proper grip (tenouchi), as does control of angle and elimination of wiggle and wobble. Tenouchi requires varying the pressure used, during the swing, and involves a technique called chakin shibori (wringing tea towel) which is critically important in braking. The literature abounds in horror stories about failing to do this properly. Single hand (kodachi/kataeuchi/wakizashi) techniques have their own pitfalls in this area, and remember that the Japanese styles don't use a "fencer's grip".
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 13, 2018 23:04:49 GMT
For me it's the reverse, dual wakizashi make me nervous about slip-ups because the blades are so much shorter. With katanas, I've found that you can effectively 'knock' the mune with either the other blade or your limbs and shoulders depending on context; whereas with wakizashi this would lead to a punctured limb since they don't extend far enough. Although I'm also not all that experienced with wakizashi, so I'm still wrapping my head around them, especially in pairs.
(2 katz sounds like a rapper's name when you shorten it haha)
Protecting your knees and other appurtenances below your waist requires proper grip (tenouchi), as does control of angle and elimination of wiggle and wobble. Tenouchi requires varying the pressure used, during the swing, and involves a technique called chakin shibori (wringing tea towel) which is critically important in braking. The literature abounds in horror stories about failing to do this properly. Single hand (kodachi/kataeuchi/wakizashi) techniques have their own pitfalls in this area, and remember that the Japanese styles don't use a "fencer's grip". A fun anecdote is that my grip's similar in appearance to a 'fencer's grip' where my bottom three fingers have the tightest hold of the handle and the index and thumb are more spread out. I've noticed that focusing pressure on the bottom versus the top of the hand (where the top is index and thumb) seems to facilitate much easier slicing and maneuvering with both katana and rapier compared to a 'hammer grip' or a grip where pressure is at the top of the hand vs. the bottom. Something just seems more mechanically solid this way, and there's room for further analysis of the subject.
And to your point, it's really just a matter of becoming familiar with the motion of the sword to get a feel for how to 'hit the brakes' as you said. It's not too difficult to stop a katana in motion, something I practice from time to time is to pick an object and swing the sword towards said object and stop it as close to the object as possible without making any contact. It really helps one gain an appreciation for maintaining control over a blade's movement. howler this is a fun exercise that you might want to try out, helps make one less worried about severed knees.
Although a fun conversation, this has become a bit tangential to the original topic...hmmm, how to tie it back in... a-ha! The samurai who grips his sword as in niten ryu may nimbly engage the fencer's smallsword and the two may have at it with dignity. The dreaded hammer grip will leave the katana user slow and vulnerable to the fierce attacks of the fencing nobleman. (I'm really stretching for relevancy to the original topic here)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 23:10:15 GMT
Stumbled upon an article about historical conflict between japanese swords and other types of swords. I found the below quoted portion very interesting if sources are verified. It seems in specific combat situations against Portuguese rapiers, the katana did not do well. Therefore, a lighter weight katana with a double edged tip was developed. Then, the new type of katana was successful against the rapier. See below: "Maybe no recorded personal duel per se but the story about the Portuguese being banned from bringing swords (rapiers) ashore during the extensive trading exchanges in Kyushu is documented. The reason for the ban was linked to the fact that the Portuguese originally cut down so many samurai. The local samurai responded by having new swords made which were much lighter than the battle blades they normally carried. Later, another encounter occurred and a virtual small scale war ensued with many Portuguese dying in the skirmish. I know about this because a distant relative of my teacher actually took part in this bit of historical trivia. My teacher (Takamura Yukiyoshi) still owned his relatives sword which was made specifically in response to the Portuguese sword tactics the samurai encountered in Kyushu. Like the famous Kogarasu Maru, this sword was double edged from about 5 inches to the kissaki but much lighter and faster. This design was adopted to allow a swift back-cut like the ones the Portuguese employed so effectively against the samurai with rapiers. Once armed with swords of this style, the samurai turned the tables even on the Portuguese in the second encounter. This is when the ban was finally instituted. The whole trading relationship was threatened….” Quote from discussion thread on E-Budo.com cited in Some comments on various topics about using Japanese Swords Here is the full article Note: The above quote is further down in link: www.tameshigiri.ca/2014/05/07/european-vs-japanese-swordsmen-historical-encounters-in-the-16th-19th-centuries/
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Ifrit
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More edgy than a double edge sword
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Post by Ifrit on Sept 19, 2018 6:58:26 GMT
Too bad there's no picture of these swords. I would have loved to see one. Regardless it was a fascinating article.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 24, 2018 14:14:23 GMT
From everything posted so far, it sounds like the Samurai has the advantage. The swords, after all, are not randomly chosen by the duelists. They were, presumably, very familiar with their respective weapons, although nothing else was specified about the conditions of the duel. However, on this point, there might be some discussion of what exactly constitutes a duel. It sounds like the general idea is that two men are facing one another armed (in this case) with swords, with no assistance from anyone else. We might also assume that this all takes place on foot.
One should not assume away any problems either of them might have, though we can reasonably assume some reasonable ability in the combatants. Moreover, there are more differences than simply the weapons in hand. As you probably already realize, they both are part of different systems of fighting. European fighting ideas of the 15th through the 18th (and later) generally seem to allow for the possibility that a smallsword or rapier armed man might face someone armed with a different weapon, I doubt that a katana was ever thought about--until it was too late.
A katana or the later Japanese army sword clearly has the weight advantage, although not as much as is suggested here. Most modern manufactured smallswords weight between one and two pounds, one or two being heavier, at least one being lighter. A fencing saber is even lighter. While parrying is taught in European swordsmanship, I don't know if that's so in Japanese swordsmanship or not. Either way, it's frightening to imagine trying to parry a cut from a Japanese sword. The Japanese way seems almost like a do or die style, leaving one's self open in order to deliver the more powerful overhand cut. A smallsword thrust simply will not immediately disable anyone, Hollywood style, at least for most of the body. A cut with a katana is another matter. Too scary to think about.
The use of swords by the Japanese in the Russo-Japanese war was responsible for maintaining some interest in the continued use of swords in the army. Even so, it was assumed that there would be next to no sword fighting, meaning two men armed with swords fighting one another.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Sept 24, 2018 16:20:51 GMT
I don't get the idea that a small sword thrust wouldn't stop someone. No one keeps fighting with a steel bar through their brain.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 24, 2018 17:56:00 GMT
No, of course not. That's why I said for most of the body. Generally speaking, it's difficult to allow for or to predict either the physiological or the psychological effect of most wounds, unless they're massive. You've probably been cut and not even noticed it until later. But several here have suggested that a wound from a katana is going to be massive to begin with. It probably would be. But I can say from personal experience that some wounds hurt more than others. And that you can even be knocked down without really being hurt (although the damage to your pride can be terrible).
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 24, 2018 17:57:24 GMT
I don't get the idea that a small sword thrust wouldn't stop someone. No one keeps fighting with a steel bar through their brain. You might be surprised. Unless the trauma is to the t-zone (medulla oblongata, brainstem, and first three cervical vertebrae), there are no guarantees that an ultimately fatal strike will instantly cause flaccid paralysis and remove the target as a potential threat. There are many verified medical records of people with massive penetrating trauma to the brain who had minimal-to-no significant impediment to their ability to function. Many weren't even aware they had a brain trauma at all.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 24, 2018 19:13:22 GMT
Aside from weapon design, general sword skills of the combatants and physical abilities, a lot would depend on the mindset(s) and environment.
If the katana user would be willing to take severe injury, and the environment doesn’t allow for a lot of evasive footwork, it would be not unlikely he’d be able to kill the smallsword user right there at that place. Otoh, on open ground, a cold-blooded and fit smallsword user might be able to pick the katana user apart due the design of his weapon and nature of its usage.
Without knowing about the environment, personally I’d use a light cutter/cut-n-thruster of similar blade length than the katana, but single-handed and with good hand protection. That would allow for parries closer to the hand, more nimbleness in general and leave one hand free for controlling and grappling, while also giving more reach than using a blade of the same length with two hands.
Imo, the greatest inherent strengths of a katana lay in its design optimized for the fast-draw and its stopping power, while the smallsword is super-quick on defense and attack as well as being very seductive/evasive, so not easily being bound on or parried. In a dueling situation with both blades being already drawn, a light cutlass might be a good compromise, especially against the katana, and should the space be confined.
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Post by Cosmoline on Sept 24, 2018 19:25:33 GMT
In Rob Roy it worked (beside the script made it working) because Archie held his degen at Rob's neck and waited so Rob could grab it. And he could hold it due to bending the blade. In a real duel this wouldn't work I guess. But the Rob Roy duel in the movie before this last scene is a bit what I imagine here too. In the circumstances shown in the film it would have worked without a problem. If you hold a blade out, it can be grabbed and held. You have no more leverage than the opponent since you're both holding ends of the sword. But of course only a fool would stand there with the sword in a person's face doing the tropey villain monologue.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 24, 2018 21:10:36 GMT
Although it wouldn't happen with too many smallswords, perhaps one with a colichemarde blade (which I count as a smallsword), grabbing the blade might result in the loss of some fingers, which has happened in real life sword duels. When you're done reading this, go down to the basement and get your own smallsword and see what happens. I think that even with my Cold Steel version, if I were gripping it tightly enough and it were pulled away quickly enough, I would suffer at least a bad cut on my fingers. But a man with a two-handed sword probably wouldn't be attempting that in the first place.
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