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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 10, 2018 17:00:25 GMT
.....I'm thinking any weapon AND wearing heavy leather gloves vs. small sword/rapier/thin thrusting blade....the heavy leather gloves wins! As in Rob Roy style, just grab the blade while wearing the leather gloves with one hand and use you other hand holding the weapon against your opponent. .....in fact, I wonder the outcome of just heavy leather gloves vs small sword/rapier. Those heavy leather gloves can be deadly. Haha!.....eh. It sounds like a strategy if the smallsworder will let you grab and hold onto the blade. But it seems more likely he'll just move his point around in a disengage and poke your heart.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 10, 2018 17:12:59 GMT
In Rob Roy it worked (beside the script made it working) because Archie held his degen at Rob's neck and waited so Rob could grab it. And he could hold it due to bending the blade. In a real duel this wouldn't work I guess. But the Rob Roy duel in the movie before this last scene is a bit what I imagine here too.
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 10, 2018 17:24:58 GMT
My 0.02 is the katana would probably win so long as the user can parry or bind and close or else the smallsword user would easily win if the katana user whiffs a poorly thought out attack. Regarding lengths, if the katana isn't on the shorter side and is about standard (28 in. to 30 in.), a typical smallsword would only have about a 4-5 in. (at most) reach advantage since these were shortened for easier carry compared to rapier, and many were about the same length as a katana.
So at this point, with the smallsword you have a very light weapon that will thrust well, but cannot cut all that great unless you hit very specific points on the arms or neck, whose main advantage is about 5 inches or so of extra reach enhancing a good lunge. On the other hand, you have a fairly light weapon with lots of cutting force that can thrust perfectly fine and can be used effectively with one hand or two and has comparable length.
To win, I imagine a katana would effectively parry and close or connect and bind into the blade using the hard edge of the katana, pushing into them while driving the lighter smallsword off-line and continuing with either a passing cut along the upper arm or torso, depending on spacing. By grinding into the opponents blade aggressively, the smallsword can't retreat to align another thrust, so this would be a useful tactic for the katana user for closing distance into the relatively worthless close-quarters cutting area for the smallsword. However, if the smallsword is allowed to backstep and regain a spacing advantage after a poor tactic from the katana, it'd be a very easy win.
If the smallsword disengages, it'd be critical for the katana user to close, it'd be dumb to give the smallsword space to retreat because that turns into a disadvantageous poking game. Whether or not the katana user wants to bait or initiate is tricky, since the smallsword can thrust forward very quickly. It'd probably be wise to close while circling towards the side of the opponent where thrusting is mechanically more difficult based on their posture and chosen guard position at the moment and then initiate an encounter to facilitate closing in. The mass of the katana would help it parry the smallsword offline and the hard edge would facilitate 'biting' the smallsword and binding, so as long as contact is made things would probably turn out well for the katana user so long as they seize the opportunity and close.
But these are all just my ideas about how it'd turn out based around rapier v. katana and the differences between rapier and smallsword. Haven't sparred with a smallsword before, but I think the weapon isn't optimized for much rather than duels among nobility using the same weapon or very brief and small scale urban skirmishes. Could be due to my lack of familiarity with them (that is, never practiced with one myself, although I'm a big fan of rapier). I don't think using a dagger with smallsword is all that disadvantageous (i.e. mandating squared shoulders) as it remains you could always throw it at the opponent if nothing else. Seems to be atypical historically for sure, daggers seemed to not be used in tandem much with smallswords from what I've seen.
Although to be honest, I think I'd prefer having a wakizashi in my off-hand for this. Extra parrying opportunities and a projectile if so desired, a couple more advantages can't be scorned.
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 10, 2018 17:29:19 GMT
I see a new thread coming: Destreza vs. Niten ichi-ryū! But indeed I was interested in the duel situation between the two "court swords" without offhand weapons. Can a fencer with only a light thrusting sword keep the samurai at distance? This sounds like a fun discussion
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 10, 2018 17:33:45 GMT
In Rob Roy it worked (beside the script made it working) because Archie held his degen at Rob's neck and waited so Rob could grab it. And he could hold it due to bending the blade. In a real duel this wouldn't work I guess. But the Rob Roy duel in the movie before this last scene is a bit what I imagine here too. OK, I've been letting some of the more clueless comments pass, but let's get one thing very, very, clear. Do not, under any circumstances, ever grab hold of a katana, wakizashi, or tanto blade. They will go through leather gloves like a straight razor, so forget that, too.
After an officer was injured while trying this, to increase his leverage to dispatch a victim he'd only wounded (in one of the 1930's coup attempts in Tokyo), there was a pre-WW II IJA controversy about dulling gunto blades inboard of the monouchi so jukendo moves could be done with them. The powers-that-were decided that if you did that, it wouldn't be a katana any more, and honor would be offended, so the blades stayed sharp until the last couple of inches before the habaki, as was traditional.
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 10, 2018 18:31:58 GMT
My 0.02 is the katana would probably win so long as the user can parry or bind and close or else the smallsword user would easily win if the katana user whiffs a poorly thought out attack. Regarding lengths, if the katana isn't on the shorter side and is about standard (28 in. to 30 in.), a typical smallsword would only have about a 4-5 in. (at most) reach advantage since these were shortened for easier carry compared to rapier, and many were about the same length as a katana. So at this point, with the smallsword you have a very light weapon that will thrust well, but cannot cut all that great unless you hit very specific points on the arms or neck, whose main advantage is about 5 inches or so of extra reach enhancing a good lunge. On the other hand, you have a fairly light weapon with lots of cutting force that can thrust perfectly fine and can be used effectively with one hand or two and has comparable length. To win, I imagine a katana would effectively parry and close or connect and bind into the blade using the hard edge of the katana, pushing into them while driving the lighter smallsword off-line and continuing with either a passing cut along the upper arm or torso, depending on spacing. By grinding into the opponents blade aggressively, the smallsword can't retreat to align another thrust, so this would be a useful tactic for the katana user for closing distance into the relatively worthless close-quarters cutting area for the smallsword. However, if the smallsword is allowed to backstep and regain a spacing advantage after a poor tactic from the katana, it'd be a very easy win. If the smallsword disengages, it'd be critical for the katana user to close, it'd be dumb to give the smallsword space to retreat because that turns into a disadvantageous poking game. Whether or not the katana user wants to bait or initiate is tricky, since the smallsword can thrust forward very quickly. It'd probably be wise to close while circling towards the side of the opponent where thrusting is mechanically more difficult based on their posture and chosen guard position at the moment and then initiate an encounter to facilitate closing in. The mass of the katana would help it parry the smallsword offline and the hard edge would facilitate 'biting' the smallsword and binding, so as long as contact is made things would probably turn out well for the katana user so long as they seize the opportunity and close. But these are all just my ideas about how it'd turn out based around rapier v. katana and the differences between rapier and smallsword. Haven't sparred with a smallsword before, but I think the weapon isn't optimized for much rather than duels among nobility using the same weapon or very brief and small scale urban skirmishes. Could be due to my lack of familiarity with them (that is, never practiced with one myself, although I'm a big fan of rapier). I don't think using a dagger with smallsword is all that disadvantageous (i.e. mandating squared shoulders) as it remains you could always throw it at the opponent if nothing else. Seems to be atypical historically for sure, daggers seemed to not be used in tandem much with smallswords from what I've seen. Although to be honest, I think I'd prefer having a wakizashi in my off-hand for this. Extra parrying opportunities and a projectile if so desired, a couple more advantages can't be scorned. Like!! My take on the smallsword is that it was a vestigial blade for vestigial aristocrats (and some wealthy merchants), to look cool on your hip, suggesting that you really could perform like your titled ancestors if the King ever demanded it (fat chance), and to make robbers think twice before telling you to stand and deliver.
FWIW, due to palace regulations at both the Shogunal and Imperial courts, court swords as such didn't exist in Japan at the time in question. Guards and officials allowed a weapon at court wore jutte, which were also considered as a badge.
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 19:14:31 GMT
You are correct we should remain with small sword vs katanas. However, you introduced rapiers in your previous post. If reading my emphasis in all my responses to this thread, an offhand dagger was not known to be used with a smallsword. My posts have been in rebuttal of another misplaced post. To which the continued non referenced opinions of I'm still waiting for references from howler of smallsword paired with dagger. Similarly, a jitte was not known to be used with a katana in the other hand. I never claimed dagger were paired with smallsword (an interesting question), only that I think it would be both interesting and effective. Nothing wrong or incorrect in my posts, and if so, no biggie. Relax and enjoy.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 10, 2018 19:22:51 GMT
McBane was quite clear on the advantages of the smallsword over the broadsword in a dueling situation. Too tired to look it up / quote now exactly, but the references / implications are clear. What may be interesting is how a katana differs from a broadsword. My take is that it’s not enough to give the cutter/ shortish cut-n`-thruster an inherent advantage above the fast-paced thruster. Of course the main factors are contextual.
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 19:35:05 GMT
My 0.02 is the katana would probably win so long as the user can parry or bind and close or else the smallsword user would easily win if the katana user whiffs a poorly thought out attack. Regarding lengths, if the katana isn't on the shorter side and is about standard (28 in. to 30 in.), a typical smallsword would only have about a 4-5 in. (at most) reach advantage since these were shortened for easier carry compared to rapier, and many were about the same length as a katana. So at this point, with the smallsword you have a very light weapon that will thrust well, but cannot cut all that great unless you hit very specific points on the arms or neck, whose main advantage is about 5 inches or so of extra reach enhancing a good lunge. On the other hand, you have a fairly light weapon with lots of cutting force that can thrust perfectly fine and can be used effectively with one hand or two and has comparable length. To win, I imagine a katana would effectively parry and close or connect and bind into the blade using the hard edge of the katana, pushing into them while driving the lighter smallsword off-line and continuing with either a passing cut along the upper arm or torso, depending on spacing. By grinding into the opponents blade aggressively, the smallsword can't retreat to align another thrust, so this would be a useful tactic for the katana user for closing distance into the relatively worthless close-quarters cutting area for the smallsword. However, if the smallsword is allowed to backstep and regain a spacing advantage after a poor tactic from the katana, it'd be a very easy win. If the smallsword disengages, it'd be critical for the katana user to close, it'd be dumb to give the smallsword space to retreat because that turns into a disadvantageous poking game. Whether or not the katana user wants to bait or initiate is tricky, since the smallsword can thrust forward very quickly. It'd probably be wise to close while circling towards the side of the opponent where thrusting is mechanically more difficult based on their posture and chosen guard position at the moment and then initiate an encounter to facilitate closing in. The mass of the katana would help it parry the smallsword offline and the hard edge would facilitate 'biting' the smallsword and binding, so as long as contact is made things would probably turn out well for the katana user so long as they seize the opportunity and close. But these are all just my ideas about how it'd turn out based around rapier v. katana and the differences between rapier and smallsword. Haven't sparred with a smallsword before, but I think the weapon isn't optimized for much rather than duels among nobility using the same weapon or very brief and small scale urban skirmishes. Could be due to my lack of familiarity with them (that is, never practiced with one myself, although I'm a big fan of rapier). I don't think using a dagger with smallsword is all that disadvantageous (i.e. mandating squared shoulders) as it remains you could always throw it at the opponent if nothing else. Seems to be atypical historically for sure, daggers seemed to not be used in tandem much with smallswords from what I've seen. Although to be honest, I think I'd prefer having a wakizashi in my off-hand for this. Extra parrying opportunities and a projectile if so desired, a couple more advantages can't be scorned. Like!! My take on the smallsword is that it was a vestigial blade for vestigial aristocrats (and some wealthy merchants), to look cool on your hip, suggesting that you really could perform like your titled ancestors if the King ever demanded it (fat chance), and to make robbers think twice before telling you to stand and deliver.
FWIW, due to palace regulations at both the Shogunal and Imperial courts, court swords as such didn't exist in Japan at the time in question. Guards and officials allowed a weapon at court wore jutte, which were also considered as a badge.
And, as you probably know, not all smallswords are equal. Those last "court/dress" swords (some not even functional, weighing hardly nothing) were a pretty far cry from the better, earlier examples that were extremely deadly in competent hands.
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 10, 2018 19:40:04 GMT
Like!! My take on the smallsword is that it was a vestigial blade for vestigial aristocrats (and some wealthy merchants), to look cool on your hip, suggesting that you really could perform like your titled ancestors if the King ever demanded it (fat chance), and to make robbers think twice before telling you to stand and deliver.
FWIW, due to palace regulations at both the Shogunal and Imperial courts, court swords as such didn't exist in Japan at the time in question. Guards and officials allowed a weapon at court wore jutte, which were also considered as a badge.
And, as you probably know, not all smallswords are equal. Those last "court/dress" swords (some not even functional, weighing 3/4lb as opposed to nearly 1 1/2lbs) were a pretty far cry from the better, earlier examples that were extremely deadly in competent hands. Makes me wonder how smallswords vs. sideswords would compare, that'd be a fun one to assess.
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 19:49:31 GMT
And, as you probably know, not all smallswords are equal. Those last "court/dress" swords (some not even functional, weighing 3/4lb as opposed to nearly 1 1/2lbs) were a pretty far cry from the better, earlier examples that were extremely deadly in competent hands. Makes me wonder how smallswords vs. sideswords would compare, that'd be a fun one to assess. Yeah, smallsword would have speed advantage (vs power and cutting by the sidesword), but at least you can get your head around the matchup. Of course, not all sideswords are equal, so much variance. Katana was a weird comparison because it's a two hander.
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Post by zabazagobo on Sept 10, 2018 20:08:11 GMT
Makes me wonder how smallswords vs. sideswords would compare, that'd be a fun one to assess. Yeah, smallsword would have speed advantage (vs power and cutting by the sidesword), but at least you can get your head around the matchup. Of course, not all sideswords are equal, so much variance. Katana was a weird comparison because it's a two hander. It'd be interesting to see how that match would play out, since I'm not sure the same tactics applicable to katana would work with a strict single handed blade like the sidesword. I wonder if the smallsword would then have the upper hand thanks to that speed advantage, since biting into the blade and pinning it would be much more tricky with only a single hand. Interesting thoughts to ponder.
As for katana, they're not necessarily a two handed weapon. They work just fine in a single hand, although they need a companion blade to shine when used such a way. Maybe sabre v. smallsword would be a more common contest.
Now on the idea of two handed matchups, an estoc v. katana would be a fun comparison as well. Ah, tangents, fun times.
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 10, 2018 20:33:18 GMT
Like!! My take on the smallsword is that it was a vestigial blade for vestigial aristocrats (and some wealthy merchants), to look cool on your hip, suggesting that you really could perform like your titled ancestors if the King ever demanded it (fat chance), and to make robbers think twice before telling you to stand and deliver.
FWIW, due to palace regulations at both the Shogunal and Imperial courts, court swords as such didn't exist in Japan at the time in question. Guards and officials allowed a weapon at court wore jutte, which were also considered as a badge.
And, as you probably know, not all smallswords are equal. Those last "court/dress" swords (some not even functional, weighing hardly nothing) were a pretty far cry from the better, earlier examples that were extremely deadly in competent hands. Yup, granted, but that's getting into details. How much shochu or brandy are our participants fueled with, and did one or the other come home to find his wife entertaining company, or is it a dispute over cards, or did their buddies just need some contest to facilitate wagering?
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Post by elbrittania39 on Sept 10, 2018 21:58:47 GMT
Smallswords were not vestigial jewelry. They were robust triangular bladed stabbing swords that were frighteningly nimble. What you probably tried was a dress sword, which sure, is a terrible weapon, because it isn't a weapon at all. If we are comparing a katana to a non weapon dress sword, the choice is so obvious I don't see the point of conversation. Therefore, probably assume we're talking about a combat worthy smallsword.
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Post by howler on Sept 11, 2018 0:25:15 GMT
Yeah, smallsword would have speed advantage (vs power and cutting by the sidesword), but at least you can get your head around the matchup. Of course, not all sideswords are equal, so much variance. Katana was a weird comparison because it's a two hander. It'd be interesting to see how that match would play out, since I'm not sure the same tactics applicable to katana would work with a strict single handed blade like the sidesword. I wonder if the smallsword would then have the upper hand thanks to that speed advantage, since biting into the blade and pinning it would be much more tricky with only a single hand. Interesting thoughts to ponder.
As for katana, they're not necessarily a two handed weapon. They work just fine in a single hand, although they need a companion blade to shine when used such a way. Maybe sabre v. smallsword would be a more common contest.
Now on the idea of two handed matchups, an estoc v. katana would be a fun comparison as well. Ah, tangents, fun times.
I hear ya on smallsword, and agree/think that katana can/is used with one hand but is primarily a two hander. Your (if I recall) the duel wielding katana cat (a good nickname, but maybe to long...so how about 2 Kat Cat), but if I wanted to duel wield primarily cutting blades, it would be double Waki. Man, if you miss a swing or get deflected...off goes your kneecap.
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Post by howler on Sept 11, 2018 0:31:22 GMT
And, as you probably know, not all smallswords are equal. Those last "court/dress" swords (some not even functional, weighing hardly nothing) were a pretty far cry from the better, earlier examples that were extremely deadly in competent hands. Yup, granted, but that's getting into details. How much shochu or brandy are our participants fueled with, and did one or the other come home to find his wife entertaining company, or is it a dispute over cards, or did their buddies just need some contest to facilitate wagering? Hah, "entertaining company"...a diplomatic way of saying it. The reason for the duel (and altering substances like booze) would absolutely mean more than small details between weapons, though the worst court/dress swords really are non functional fashion only items and not smallswords, so discounting them.
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Post by howler on Sept 11, 2018 0:33:58 GMT
Smallswords we're not vestigial jewelry. They were robust triangular bladed stabbing swords that we're frighteningly nimble. What you probably tried was a dress sword, which sure, is a terrible weapon, because it isn't a weapon at all. If we are comparing a katana to a non weapon dress sword, the choice is so obvious I don't see the point of conversation. Therefore, probably assume we're talking about a combat worthy smallsword. Yup. If anything to take away from the discussion is that, in the worst cases, "court/dress" swords can very well be non functioning fashion items and not a proper smallsword.
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Post by markus313 on Sept 11, 2018 20:53:06 GMT
A note on the idea of adding a parrying dagger, although excluded by the op... Video analysis of real sword (read: machete) fights (e.g. in the Dominican Republic) shows that the chance of using some kind of off-hand protection/weaponry seems to be preferred by many when having to face other (cut-centric) blades. As a well-designed parrying dagger combines both deterrence against closing as well as some protection from slashes/thrusts, it might be a good idea to have one against an opponent wielding a katana, who may would like to close fast in order to avoid the smallswordman’s quick ripostes (saying the use of a protective off-hand blade makes more sense for the one using a thrust-centric blade, trying to play from distance against the one using the cut-centric blade).
In general it will be harder for the cutter to get a safe strike in, since he needs to control his opponent’s weapon before and after his attack towards the body, whereas the thruster can rely on avoidance and/or seduction to get his attack in and only needs control over the opponent's blade for his withdrawal. For this an offhand-dagger can be really helpful, too.
(Of course both always need to mind a double-hit when attacking, so some kind of control or at least cover is imperative in any case.)
Adding a parrying dagger to a smallsword vs. a katana or katana/wakizashi gives the smallswordman the advantage of the double-time (added to the already greater agility of his weapon) in certain situations. Due to the nature of the body motions necessary for effective cutting, and the design of the weapons, it's not the same for the kat/wak combo.
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Post by howler on Sept 11, 2018 23:57:12 GMT
A note on the idea of adding a parrying dagger, although excluded by the op... Video analysis of real sword (read: machete) fights (e.g. in the Dominican Republic) shows that the chance of using some kind of off-hand protection/weaponry seems to be preferred by many when having to face other (cut-centric) blades. As a well-designed parrying dagger combines both deterrence against closing as well as some protection from slashes/thrusts, it might be a good idea to have one against an opponent wielding a katana, who may would like to close fast in order to avoid the smallswordman’s quick ripostes (saying the use of a protective off-hand blade makes more sense for the one using a thrust-centric blade, trying to play from distance against the one using the cut-centric blade).
In general it will be harder for the cutter to get a safe strike in, since he needs to control his opponent’s weapon before and after his attack towards the body, whereas the thruster can rely on avoidance and/or seduction to get his attack in and only needs control over the opponent's blade for his withdrawal. For this an offhand-dagger can be really helpful, too.
(Of course both always need to mind a double-hit when attacking, so some kind of control is imperative in any case.)
Adding a parrying dagger to a smallsword vs. a katana or katana/wakizashi gives the smallswordman the advantage of the double-time (added to the already greater agility of his weapon) in certain situations. Due to the nature of the body motions necessary for effective cutting, and the design of the weapons, it's not the same for the kat/wak combo.
Beautiful, logical and inarguable, Markus, and probably why the attempt is made to focus on smallsword only vs the Kat...to give the Kat a better chance.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 12, 2018 2:45:31 GMT
I think maybe katana, unless the katana welder is so foreign to parrying thrusts that the smallsworder could thrust in, come out, feint, thrust in, and just try to avoid the edge of the katana. Actually I think they're about even. So 50/50 chance to either.
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