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Post by howler on Sept 9, 2018 19:47:40 GMT
The Samurai were also taught to thrust, and to defend against it. The Katana is a superior cutter, but that does not mean it can't thrust as well. The small sword was made to thrust, and if we are talking about the same sword design that I think we are, then it's basically a three sided long spike with only the first 5 or 6 inches of the blade sharpened. While the small sword can cut, it's not at all designed to do so, and that would put it at a disadvantage. Everybody is bringing up very well thought out and logical points about which contestant would win. I am enjoying reading this thread. But I fear the only way to settle this is my experimentation....so does anybody know any Samurai we can call? Not only do we need to get a Samurai on board in this potentially deadly "Thunderdome" skirmish, but we need a smallswordman. And we would have to set it up "Fight Club" style, as I don't think this (basically ancient Roman Gladiatorial hijinks) would be exactly legal.
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Post by howler on Sept 9, 2018 19:52:21 GMT
.....I'm thinking any weapon AND wearing heavy leather gloves vs. small sword/rapier/thin thrusting blade....the heavy leather gloves wins! As in Rob Roy style, just grab the blade while wearing the leather gloves with one hand and use you other hand holding the weapon against your opponent. .....in fact, I wonder the outcome of just heavy leather gloves vs small sword/rapier. Those heavy leather gloves can be deadly. Haha!.....eh. Another reason for the main gauche.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2018 20:25:13 GMT
There are plenty of smallsword articles and treatise out there. Angelo, etc. as mentioned Hope, McBane but there are others. Singlestick, quite popular practice. www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=21If one wants to read on the historical abundance of sidearms, consider even Ben Franklin discusses the need to be prepared. One note in history though is the lack of officers and gentleman wearing a sword and using an offhand weapon aside from a firearm. An exception would be the European navies. With that, I bid adieu to a thread I probably should not have entered.
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Post by howler on Sept 9, 2018 21:51:29 GMT
There are plenty of smallsword articles and treatise out there. Angelo, etc. as mentioned Hope, McBane but there are others. Singlestick, quite popular practice. www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=21If one wants to read on the historical abundance of sidearms, consider even Ben Franklin discusses the need to be prepared. One note in history though is the lack of officers and gentleman wearing a sword and using an offhand weapon aside from a firearm. An exception would be the European navies. With that, I bid adieu to a thread I probably should not have entered. Agree with all you said, just thinking that a Japanese wearing a katana would be somehow more nasty, though would obviously hate to mess with anyone rocking a sword with the skill and intent on using it. No argument that officers using sword and offhand in any military context would be a poor choice historically, though it was an effective dueling combo earlier on. It really isn't a debate until Edelweiss enters, and you, along with Dave Kelly must have the best historic saber collections out there.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 0:40:12 GMT
"though it was an effective dueling combo earlier on"
Not with a smallsword or rapier except in playing or both using them. I could go on for hours regarding this but you seem to not understand that even with a rapier that "dual wielding" broadens your own targeted areas. Not one of those easily found treatise mentioned, Angelo, Hope, McBane mention use of a parrying dagger. It is entirely a bit of mythology you choose to hang onto and while perfectly fitting to gaming and fantasy, simply shortens your overall reach and invites attack not as easily blocked as you feel some universal goodness.
Spend all of two minutes skimming the entirety of the last ARMA article I linked and point out to me the number of times a person is shown or detailed as using an offhand dagger. Multiply that by all imagery of combatants presenting themselves as narrow a target as possible, without a dagger in their off hand, particularly when dueling through history.
I expect you will have few sources or instances to back up your thoughts aside from the conjecture and romance of Hollywood.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 10, 2018 2:59:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 3:06:15 GMT
Wasn't the topic smallsword vs katana?
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 5:06:30 GMT
"though it was an effective dueling combo earlier on" Not with a smallsword or rapier except in playing or both using them. I could go on for hours regarding this but you seem to not understand that even with a rapier that "dual wielding" broadens your own targeted areas. Not one of those easily found treatise mentioned, Angelo, Hope, McBane mention use of a parrying dagger. It is entirely a bit of mythology you choose to hang onto and while perfectly fitting to gaming and fantasy, simply shortens your overall reach and invites attack not as easily blocked as you feel some universal goodness. Spend all of two minutes skimming the entirety of the last ARMA article I linked and point out to me the number of times a person is shown or detailed as using an offhand dagger. Multiply that by all imagery of combatants presenting themselves as narrow a target as possible, without a dagger in their off hand, particularly when dueling through history. I expect you will have few sources or instances to back up your thoughts aside from the conjecture and romance of Hollywood. McBane used other (cutting) blades, and died in 1732 (another time and place...I'm thinking more Spain, France for my combo), I believe some time after the widespread use of the (mainly thrusting) rapier. I understand your point on enlarged target/shortened range, but you don't have to exclusively square your shoulders and face your opponent when holding a main gauche. With a larger and heavier rapier I would intuitively want a dagger in my other hand, with the gains (inside stabbing, blocking) beating out the loss (in my opinion) of a free grappling hand. A small shield of some type would be the only argument, and I would still take a dagger if it had good hand protection (some shielding ability). I think rapier/dagger more than mythology but can't say exact extent of use, maybe (like you say) less than I believe. Duels were odd things where strict rules and equality was enforced, though anything goes in the "back room".
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 10, 2018 5:07:19 GMT
I see a new thread coming: Destreza vs. Niten ichi-ryū!
But indeed I was interested in the duel situation between the two "court swords" without offhand weapons. Can a fencer with only a light thrusting sword keep the samurai at distance?
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 5:49:53 GMT
I see a new thread coming: Destreza vs. Niten ichi-ryū! But indeed I was interested in the duel situation between the two "court swords" without offhand weapons. Can a fencer with only a light thrusting sword keep the samurai at distance? I may well have been the vile offender who jammed the dagger (maybe even rapier) into the mix, Andi. I guess we would have to then specify the Smallsword, so I'll second one of Adel's examples above. Larger, maybe some cutting ability to inhibit blade grabbing and to do light damage. I don't know anything about lesser "court" katana, but if you go to the dregs of smallsword, you could be talking about some real (nigh nonfunctional) garbage...nasty fashion only dress swords. Better than toothpicks, but you just might want a good steak knife.
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 6:17:01 GMT
Wasn't the topic smallsword vs katana? I believe Gandy was just illustrating a point regarding our discussion (mythology vs reality). But your right in that we should only be talking about smallsword vs katana without offhand dagger or rapier. Easy going off on tangents, but that is often the fun.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 10, 2018 6:26:22 GMT
The katana of the middle Edo period (mid 18th cent.) became a bit shorter and straighter. I see a similar development from the rapier/sidesword to the smallsword or the difference between a cavalry and an infantry saber/sword. After the various civil wars in Europe and Japan the kings/shoguns established a court society for their gentlemen to keep them under control. Battlefield swords changed to court dress swords. But in this thread they still should be real weapons.
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Post by howler on Sept 10, 2018 7:06:42 GMT
The katana of the middle Edo period (mid 18th cent.) became a bit shorter and straighter. I see a similar development from the rapier/sidesword to the smallsword or the difference between a cavalry and an infantry saber/sword. After the various civil wars in Europe and Japan the kings/shoguns established a court society for their gentlemen to keep them under control. Battlefield swords changed to court dress swords. But in this thread they still should be real weapons. Worst compared to worst I think I'd pick the katana, thinking even the lesser katana would still be a substantial sword vs the dress/court smallsword. The systems are so different, I see why you brought up the question. What a thing to see for real.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 10, 2018 12:47:58 GMT
Wasn't the topic smallsword vs katana? You are correct we should remain with small sword vs katanas. However, you introduced rapiers in your previous post.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 15:46:29 GMT
Wasn't the topic smallsword vs katana? You are correct we should remain with small sword vs katanas. However, you introduced rapiers in your previous post. If reading my emphasis in all my responses to this thread, an offhand dagger was not known to be used with a smallsword. My posts have been in rebuttal of another misplaced post. To which the continued non referenced opinions of I'm still waiting for references from howler of smallsword paired with dagger. Similarly, a jitte was not known to be used with a katana in the other hand.
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 10, 2018 15:47:13 GMT
.....I'm thinking any weapon AND wearing heavy leather gloves vs. small sword/rapier/thin thrusting blade....the heavy leather gloves wins! As in Rob Roy style, just grab the blade while wearing the leather gloves with one hand and use you other hand holding the weapon against your opponent. .....in fact, I wonder the outcome of just heavy leather gloves vs small sword/rapier. Those heavy leather gloves can be deadly. Haha!.....eh. Rob Roy was not a documentary, and I believe (glove, or no) catching a smallsword blade in the hands of a competent fencer would be very difficult. Odds are that you would be busy pawing the air the smallsword used to occupy, while it was busy perforating you. This would only be worsened if you tried to do so against a rapier. Remember that the rapier/smallsword wielder can make small, quick motions with his hand/wrist and get large, quick movements at the tip. Even if you were lucky enough to grab the blade of a smallsword/rapier with your gloved hand, the odds are that the wielder's grip on his sword will be superior, and capable of withdrawing the blade from your grasp with a retreating step.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 16:03:52 GMT
.....I'm thinking any weapon AND wearing heavy leather gloves vs. small sword/rapier/thin thrusting blade....the heavy leather gloves wins! As in Rob Roy style, just grab the blade while wearing the leather gloves with one hand and use you other hand holding the weapon against your opponent. .....in fact, I wonder the outcome of just heavy leather gloves vs small sword/rapier. Those heavy leather gloves can be deadly. Haha!.....eh. Rob Roy was not a documentary, and I believe (glove, or no) catching a smallsword blade in the hands of a competent fencer would be very difficult. Odds are that you would be busy pawing the air the smallsword used to occupy, while it was busy perforating you. This would only be worsened if you tried to do so against a rapier. Remember that the rapier/smallsword wielder can make small, quick motions with his hand/wrist and get large, quick movements at the tip. Even if you were lucky enough to grab the blade of a smallsword/rapier with your gloved hand, the odds are that the wielder's grip on his sword will be superior, and capable of withdrawing the blade from your grasp with a retreating step. I don't know why rapier are still being equated with smallswords but they are similar only in being thrust-centric. A three pound rapier and twelve ounce smallsword handle entirely differently.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2018 16:05:25 GMT
I'll stop now. No need to respond to me, or my reasoning.
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Sept 10, 2018 16:30:58 GMT
In a discussion about the use of a thrust-centric sword versus a cut-centric sword, I think bringing up other thrust-centric swords for comparison is totally valid.
I'm certain that everyone in this discussion knows a rapier is not a smallsword, but a smallsword certainly has some commonalities with that earlier sword directly in its lineage (and certainly more than solely being thrust oriented).
I referenced the rapier because it had already been brought up in this conversation, and my point about the leveraged movement between hilt and point was even more pronounced in the longer rapier.
As for you suggesting that no one need respond to you, that's not how this communication format works. If you don't want people to respond to your comment then either remove it, or choose your words more carefully.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Sept 10, 2018 16:43:13 GMT
I wouldn't really call even a late Edo period katana a dress sword. The difference to those used in warfare some hundred years earlier is really small, often most people couldn't even guess the age of the sword by just looking as shapes and sizes were really similar throughout the ages. Even though probably miniscule small number of Japanese but I do believe some actually saw small swords. Given that there is a probablility that some arrogant Europeans might clash with some arrogant Japanese it might be quite possible that the scenario played out in real life. I'm not too well versed in historical evolution timeline of small sword so I could compare it to the foreign trade in Japan.
Here is one funny tsuba example to give some backup
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