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Post by cearball on Jun 19, 2018 13:31:12 GMT
Video & petition included.
Please sign if you wish to stop this.
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Post by William Swiger on Jun 19, 2018 14:05:42 GMT
Just a matter of time before they come door to door to confiscate your sharpies.......Just glad I do not live in a country or a collection of countries where they regulate the hell out of their citizens.
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thedarksider
Member
I'm really starting to run out of room for my Collection.
Posts: 227
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Post by thedarksider on Jun 19, 2018 14:18:20 GMT
Does anyone know when the bill will actually come into force?
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pattyb0009
Member
Getting into antique sabers...
Posts: 1,864
Member is Online
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Post by pattyb0009 on Jun 19, 2018 14:41:27 GMT
Oh no! This is terrible news.
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 15:40:17 GMT
This was discussed a while ago, and has been a hot topic on our UK knife forum for ages where we are fighting it as much as we can. The bill is currently mid-process in parliament. The government's bogus* 'public consultation' on the matter is long passed and now it's just down to us hoping that a few of our MPs and Lords will argue enough against it. Especially since the actual culprit in the matter (a large online retailer) has escaped without charge for its criminal acts.
The postage isn't the worst part of the proposals. It's the outright banning of many currently legal tools and hobby blades that is. They will be made illegal to even keep in your home, making a huge number of innocent people into criminals overnight. Bear in mind that police will be empowered to enter and search a home on suspicion that these now-illegal items are inside.
A big part of the problem I've seen with fighting this from the beginning, is the number of people who think that *they* won't be effected because *they* don't use *that* type of knife or sword. So stuff everyone else, I'm alright Jack. In fact, I've been disgusted by it, even in sword circles. They don't seem to understand that this is just another step in the whole 'ban everything' trend. I mean, they are even talking about banning kitchen knives with sharp points. Seriously!
It's time we in this country actually stood together, but we've been programmed over the centuries not to, and to believe the propaganda that is reported by the papers and TV. Makes us easier to control.
*bogus, because the whole document was worded in such a way as to make it difficult to disagree with the proposals without sounding like a criminal psychopath.
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Post by cearball on Jun 19, 2018 16:35:22 GMT
This was discussed a while ago, and has been a hot topic on our UK knife forum for ages where we are fighting it as much as we can. The bill is currently mid-process in parliament. The government's bogus* 'public consultation' on the matter is long passed and now it's just down to us hoping that a few of our MPs and Lords will argue enough against it. Especially since the actual culprit in the matter (a large online retailer) has escaped without charge for its criminal acts. The postage isn't the worst part of the proposals. It's the outright banning of many currently legal tools and hobby blades that is. They will be made illegal to even keep in your home, making a huge number of innocent people into criminals overnight. Bear in mind that police will be empowered to enter and search a home on suspicion that these now-illegal items are inside. A big part of the problem I've seen with fighting this from the beginning, is the number of people who think that *they* won't be effected because *they* don't use *that* type of knife or sword. So stuff everyone else, I'm alright Jack. In fact, I've been disgusted by it, even in sword circles. They don't seem to understand that this is just another step in the whole 'ban everything' trend. I mean, they are even talking about banning kitchen knives with sharp points. Seriously! It's time we in this country actually stood together, but we've been programmed over the centuries not to, and to believe the propaganda that is reported by the papers and TV. Makes us easier to control. *bogus, because the whole document was worded in such a way as to make it difficult to disagree with the proposals without sounding like a criminal psychopath. Holy crap. I never heard this side of it! So all swords will be illegal to own? Jeez. I guess I should hold off buying tatami for cutting practice. This country really is getting silly. Look at why people are doing the crimes!
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Post by William Swiger on Jun 19, 2018 16:57:24 GMT
I would hate to live in a country where only the police and military can own weapons. That is almost living under a dictatorship. Total control of the population.........
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 17:18:02 GMT
So all swords will be illegal to own? No, at least not as far as we know. Until the bill is finalised, really we are in the dark as to what will finally be enacted but swords are more a side effect of what they are trying to do to knives. The basic gist of what 'they' seem to want is to ban the purchase of knives, ban many types of currently-legal knives, and make it so the police can search homes and arrest people for owning them in their homes as the only crime that is being committed. It's all because of failing policing mostly in London, due to severe under-funding of the police over the last decade. The government is trying to find something else to blame (knives and knife owners, rather than the people who actually commit crimes) and look good for doing something about it that will make no difference whatsoever. The actual statistics (that we've been able to find) outright fail to support the proposals, and the government is refusing to reveal the current statistics and their supposed study even when challenged under the freedom of information act. Looking just at swords, other than making them difficult to post, it might be that the currently illegal to obtain swords become illegal to own at all (falling in with the rest of the items defined as offensive weapons in the criminal justice act). That is any curved sword not made by traditional methods (not clearly defined but taken to mean by hand forging) with a blade over 50cm. So, most of the cheap 'samurai swords' that used to be sold that were made from stamped bar, for instance. Currently those are legal to own provided they were obtained before they were listed in the CJA. The situation is much worse for knife collectors and users (like me) because the government also wants to redefine 'flick knife' and we are worried that they will effectively ban any knife capable of being opened with one hand. That's most modern folding knives, including many Stanley knife (carpet/box cutters) designs that are carried by tradespeople every day. Many people are saying that it won't happen and courts won't be that stupid, but the evidence is that the police and courts will jump at the chance to make statistics to prove the act was effective. Another thing people aren't aware of is that the government can easily extend the act once it's in, by using 'statutory instrument' procedures, bypassing any further parliamentary debate. That's a trick this government has used frequently to bring in bad laws without any chance for MPs to challenge them.
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 17:22:47 GMT
I would hate to live in a country where only the police and military can own weapons. That is almost living under a dictatorship. Total control of the population......... Tell me about it! Believe me, if I was in a position to get out, I wouldn't hesitate. Short of winning the lottery though, there's not a chance. And I don't do the lottery out of principle, so I guess I'm stuck here. Oh, but you missed one... weapons can only be owned by the police, military and criminals who by definition ignore the laws that only restrict the law-abiding.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jun 19, 2018 17:29:10 GMT
I would hate to live in a country where only the police and military can own weapons. That is almost living under a dictatorship. Total control of the population......... Tell me about it! Believe me, if I was in a position to get out, I wouldn't hesitate. Short of winning the lottery though, there's not a chance. And I don't do the lottery out of principle, so I guess I'm stuck here. Oh, but you missed one... weapons can only be owned by the police, military and criminals who by definition ignore the laws that only restrict the law-abiding. While I agree this law is asinine, I've never liked the logic that because criminals sometimes break laws, laws have no impact on them what so ever. By that logic let's just be an anarchy and have no laws. Of course people can break laws, but their very existence can deter crime and introduce additional punishments. Even the worst criminals obey some laws. It's not like a bank robber is also a murderer, drug dealer, rapist etc.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jun 19, 2018 17:35:21 GMT
What I don't get most is how they think they even can regulate edged weapons. Everything is a knife. Just ask a prisoner. You can sharped a tooth brush or a spoon and get a weapon comparable to a knife. It's like trying to regulate all blunt weapons. Are they gonna ban sticks?
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 17:56:49 GMT
Yeah, fair point elbrittania39, but I didn't say that laws have no impact on criminals whatsoever. Laws are required in order to punish criminals and protect innocents. Those of a criminal persuasion aren't interested in following laws except where they have to in order to not get caught; they follow the letter of the law (maybe) but certainly not the spirit of it. As opposed to a 'law abiding' person who follows the law because it is the law. If a criminal sees a need to carry a weapon, be it a knife or gun, they will not hesitate. They might carry something that hasn't been banned (so can't simply be arrested for that, and I suppose that fits what you said) and so circumvent that law. Thus the law has little effect on them. Law-abiding people generally will not, not for fear of getting caught but because it is 'wrong'. (Personally I don't equate 'right/wrong' with 'legal/illegal', but that's me) I used to work with youth violent offenders. The overwhelming majority of them didn't give two hoots about the law and not much even about getting caught because they were rarely punished much. Most of them carried weapons most of the time. Not when they were with me because they were liable to search all the time, but on the streets, they carried. As to what they carried: screwdrivers, craft knives, box cutters, hammers, scissors... almost anything except what the proposals are seeking to ban. If they were going to do something specific, then and only then would the 'real' knives come out. As to even the worst criminals obeying some laws... again going from my experience, the ones I worked with would likely do any of the above, should they have the opportunity, and some of them did fit a few of those categories already (substituting post office or shops for bank).
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 18:04:54 GMT
What I don't get most is how they think they even can regulate edged weapons. Everything is a knife. Just ask a prisoner. You can sharped a tooth brush or a spoon and get a weapon comparable to a knife. It's like trying to regulate all blunt weapons. Are they gonna ban sticks? Exactly. That's the problem, and why we won't win this easily. It isn't about knives, or even reducing crime, it's about conning the public into thinking the rise in violent crime is due to something other than the huge reduction in policing over the last decade. That and restricting the police from even using some laws so as not to offend certain groups. (It's all factual, not my opinion - can be checked). By raising awareness about 'knife' crime, making that the issue and then tackling it, the government can appear to be doing something useful to the general populace. Then, the statistics of all those who get caught out owning a previously legal tool will prove that the new laws are working. By the way, the so-called knife crime figures are mostly made up of non-knife weapons. Many years ago the government lumped in any crime involving anything sharp or pointy (snooker cue, scissors, screwdriver, shovel) as 'knife' crime for the statistics. Seriously. It's all lies, smoke and mirrors.
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 18:10:30 GMT
Sorry if I got a bit over the top with all that. It's just that I feel so strongly about all of this, and freedom in general, that I get quite wound up when I can't do anything about the stupidity. Anyone up for a revolution?
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stormmaster
Member
I like viking/migration era swords
Posts: 7,649
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Post by stormmaster on Jun 19, 2018 18:12:21 GMT
That sucks wonder what would happen to the talented smiths in the UK like tod and Rob Miller, is their client base more international anyways so they will be Ok? This will halt anyone's dreams of making swords in the UK for sure tho as they will feel it's illegal now
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jun 19, 2018 18:22:40 GMT
Look at the bright side, if this passes, maybe all the hoarded goodies will get sold internationally. *KIDDING HERE*
But I agree, this is a pile of poo. Infused with crazy.
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Post by RickDastardly on Jun 19, 2018 18:26:15 GMT
As I said, nothing is really known yet. As far as I can work out the current thinking in the proposals is to ban delivery of 'sharps' to residential addresses. That way they get out of problems with businesses that need to buy tools.
So, shipping overseas would be OK in that case.
Then again, they might just ban posting to non-business addresses, or ban posting completely and make it a specialist courier type of thing, so that would be a problem.
We just don't know yet and have to keep hoping that the good guys in the fight get some common sense through to the ivory-palace set in parliament.
It's bound to hurt business for our smiths though, it's just a case of how much. We have a lot of knife makers too, far more than sword smiths, and some of those are already considering alternatives to knife making. some of the best of them!
Just to clarify though: swords are not (yet) the target of all of this, they are just likely to be caught in the postage problem. It's only the cheap, factory-made curved swords that might be banned outright, and anything sold as a zombie knife/sword (true - zombies are now mentioned in our laws and it seems must be protected from harm!)
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Post by elbrittania39 on Jun 19, 2018 18:43:16 GMT
I have a feeling Matt Easton might be coming state side pretty soon
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 19:33:52 GMT
As I said, nothing is really known yet. As far as I can work out the current thinking in the proposals is to ban delivery of 'sharps' to residential addresses. That way they get out of problems with businesses that need to buy tools. So, shipping overseas would be OK in that case. Then again, they might just ban posting to non-business addresses, or ban posting completely and make it a specialist courier type of thing, so that would be a problem. We just don't know yet and have to keep hoping that the good guys in the fight get some common sense through to the ivory-palace set in parliament. It's bound to hurt business for our smiths though, it's just a case of how much. We have a lot of knife makers too, far more than sword smiths, and some of those are already considering alternatives to knife making. some of the best of them! Just to clarify though: swords are not (yet) the target of all of this, they are just likely to be caught in the postage problem. It's only the cheap, factory-made curved swords that might be banned outright, and anything sold as a zombie knife/sword (true - zombies are now mentioned in our laws and it seems must be protected from harm!) Well, you underline the crux of the proposal and the panic is further regulation. When the regulations went through regarding curved swords (with all explanations), work arounds were quite immediate, starting with exceptions for various reasons. Those will likely remain true, even when deliveries to a residence will be halted. That may simply be a matter of a customer going to the mail office or delivery depot to prove yourself, and in essence little difference aside from another checkpoint. When a Scot cries for no pointed knives and collectors wave their plastic cutlery while wailing in anguish; These are the real hurdles in any reasoning. It is most important to be proactive on either end of the scale but a moderate approach to the politics will be the most effective. Smoke and mirrors? Or blinders on both sides? I see the latter and the extremists are often the least truly effective. Is it the extremists that are listing London as more deadly this year than New York City? The various states in Australia adopted some pretty hefty weapons laws and iirc, restrictions hit some with requirements that seem pretty harsh but still accepting on how to obtain goods. I'm not trying to equate those to Britain's ongoing strife but it can be helpful to compare other situations. The US deals with both federal and state/territory regulations. I cannot receive fireworks, firearms and automatic knives in a state where all three are permitted by state law. Except when applying the certificates allowing transfer within the given federal and state regulations. England in turn, a retailer is going to be responsible (within regulation) to import and distribute goods. If that distribution is to be beyond counter sales, the carriers will be responsible as to whom can receive the goods at their offices/depots. Just as if a pallet of goods is sitting in customs (ie Chinese katana). Anyway, I see no fault in raising awareness on an issue but it can be oh so easy to be counterproductive with a lot of static associated with a signal that can bias the squelch to the point where reason is lost. Keep it calm, but with persistent questioning in rational debate. Just as with the previous weapons amendments to your laws, there was a lot of rational debate that led to exceptions to the regulations. For a start, instead of "OH MY GOD A BAN, GUY FAWKES WAS RIGHT!" consider "dang, another asinine regulation to deal with" I have actually considered British law as how I'll spend my twilight years and London is a possibility but it is more likely I'll look at, say, Bermuda. Cheerio, you wacky Brits The Percies might have reigned! Huzzah!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2018 19:35:02 GMT
I have a feeling Matt Easton might be coming state side pretty soon Highly doubtful.
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